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REALLY What Was So Bad About 2nd Edition?

I'm A Banana

Potassium-Rich
Hey, don't preach the doom of Planescape just yet. The community that it generated is hungry for 3e as anyone else, and the Planewalker people will be putting out 3e rulesets for 3e PS in the same way the Dark Sun people have. :)

Also, if you wanna get your jones on for the power of belief and/or a glimpse of what the 3e factions *may* look like, Silicon Phoenix's Philosophies and Falsehoods should fulfill the urge. It's being written about several "thought clubs" and how to make your own, and introducing them into any campaign. Should mesh nicely with the 3e PS stuff. :)
 

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Staffan

Legend
Kamikaze Midget said:
Hey, don't preach the doom of Planescape just yet. The community that it generated is hungry for 3e as anyone else, and the Planewalker people will be putting out 3e rulesets for 3e PS in the same way the Dark Sun people have. :)
It's also possible that WOTC might grab Planescape again and do something with it. I ran into one guy at the WOTC chat site who claimed he was writing 3e PS stuff for WOTC. Of course, he didn't have a name with WOTC in front of it, so he *could* have been spouting BS.
 

Flexor the Mighty!

18/100 Strength!
We picked up the 2nd edition books when they came out and they never really hooked us. The group didn't think it was any improvement on the 1e game so we kept playing that. They got rid of the assassin, & the fiends. That sucked. It also had that horrible Monsterous Compendium that was in a binder. Seems like a good idea but I didn't like it in practice. Pages would get their holes ripped and it wasn't a easy to carry around as the 1e MM. Never played it when Kits and the powers and skills stuff was released so I can't comment on that. I do prefer the 1e combat system and the 1 minute round. I think it was quicker and more "cinematic" for the player. In the imagination it was a minute of blocks and parries and swings and feints. Then the one gets through. One thing I kind of wish 3e had incorperated was the automatic dodge or parry like GURPS or the Palladium systems. That way heavy armour isn't as necessary and great swordsmen can wear normal clothes and still battle armored foes and beat them if his skill is high enough.
 

pat_b

First Post
Honestly,

Second edition was harder to understand. S&P I never used but kits were my friend.

Reason, I liked the backstory a kit could give you. But then again it could also be a munchkin's paradise.

Want a better backstab, more weapons proficencies, become an assasin. Want more money, take the noble birth kit from the fighter's book.

basically second editions' problem mainly I will say, was the proficency system, you had to pick your weapon proficencies, and if you selected them you were stuck with them. You're a fighter, and you're proficient with swords and spears and you find a magical axe.. can't use it.
 

7thlvlDM

Explorer
I never had a problem with 2nd edition, in fact, I started playing at the dawn of 2nd edition. I did have a problem with the re-release of 2nd edition, however. Not that the rules were bad, but the quality of the products just stunk around the mid 1990's. I think that's when TSR's financial difficulties were beginning to show. Naw, 2nd edition gave us the plethora of non-generic campaign worlds: Spelljammer, Ravenloft, Planescape, Darksun, and Birthright. 3rd edition prestige classes are an outgrowth of 2nd edition kits.

2nd edition wasn't balanced, but then quite frankly, neither is 3rd.

-7th
 


ColonelHardisson

What? Me Worry?
7thlvlDM said:
2nd edition wasn't balanced, but then quite frankly, neither is 3rd.

-7th

Could you explain how 3e isn't balanced? We see this charge every so often, but I rarely see an explanation that goes beyond how easy it is to min/max, which has much less to do with the game itself and more to do with the players doing the min/maxing.

Anyway, people ahve given numerous and detailed reasons why they think 2e wasn't good or balanced; it's only fair to enumerate your reasons for why you think that of 3e.
 

Foundry of Decay

First Post
I have to admit I had a *lot* of fun with both 1e and 2e. I don't know if it's just the nostalgia of being able to game more than once ever 5 months or so, or just that I and my players really didn't care much about real world balance being in games.

But now that 3e is out, I have a comparison to match 2e up to, and many, many problems surfaced when I saw how much easier, and more detailed the new edition had become.

So, a list of what I didn't like in 2e:

1) THACO - Mentioned before, same deal. I had to explain (and have it explained) to many players over and over just how to break the convuluted system down to hit something.

2) Minute Rounds - I never liked the 1 minute round, mostly because nobody in their right mind would move that slow in a battle. Peg-Pelvis Pete could hop up an downward escellator in less time than it took you to slowly walk up to something and take a solitary swing. Even worse were Turns.. Great-yapping-kobold-GOD! Anything that took a turn to either take effect, or for the effect to wear off would grind the game to a halt.. If you had a character under a spell that would last a turn, you might as well break out the camping gear after the battle, because you'll be there for a freakishly long time. If I remember correctly, a Ghoul smacking you around would cause you to be prone for damn near half an hour if he got in a couple of good whacks on you.

3) Weapon Proficiencies - As was stated before, I didn't much care for the 'specific weapon' proficiency that even fighters (oh.. Sorry, Warriors) were restricted to. While I believe it takes different styles to *skillfully* wield different weapons, like being a master swordsman, or super deadly with an axe, that should have been left to a specialization. It was silly that a big brute could pick up a sword and skewer anything if he was proficient, but would get slapped around by an anorexic wizard if he picked up an axe that he wasn't proficient in.
I partly love 3e because you even have sub-rules for using chairs and tables to smack things around with! Fight dirty!

4) Wizards - They were utterly pathetic in 1e and 2e. I only used the splat books later on in 2e, so for the most part, wizards would have 1 spell at first level, and that's it.. The best HP you could hope for? 6, and that's with an 18 con even due to the stat limitations for classes (more on that later). I've had swarms of bugs kill wizards in the old version, and I believe even a housecat took one out at one time.

5) Limited stat block - By that I mean that you didn't know, or have a general idea as to what the creatures attributes were. While 3e can get a little chunky for the big critters, 2e provided very little on stats other than HP, AC, Thaco, and any spells/special abilities the creature had, and perhaps what it was carrying in weapons and armor.. Cast a ray of enfeeblement? You have to guess just how much less damage the creature does, cast something that drains? More guesstimation.

6) Boring at higher levels - Again, stated before. After a certain level of advancement, there just was no point. For most classes once you hit 10th levelling was just a pointless excersize in garnering either spells, or getting a better thaco. HP became useless, as did good Con scores at that point, because you only recieved a fixed number of HP per level. You also didn't really get a hell of a lot in the way of abilities, or really cool new things.. You simply got slightly tougher. I don't think we ever played past 12th level in 1e or 2e.

7) The Finite Infinite - I used to think of experience in that way. It was a finite number that took an infinite time to reach depending on class. A friend and I were remeniscing about our last 2e campaign, in which it took us 6 years of playing to get to level 9.. 6 *YEARS* of real life to get to that point while playing casually 2 times a month, sometimes more. Wizards lagged behind the clerics, thieves and fighters until a certain level when they went up quicker, and fighters got bogged down, leading to badly mismatched parties for extended periods of play.

8) Racial caps - A rule we always ignored in 1 and 2e. We just couldn't justify why certain races could only get to a certain point in level progression, where humans could blow right past them all the way up to 20th level. Were elves that weak? Dwarves just too dern stupid to become high level wizards?

9) Multiclassing/Dualclassing - Nuff said about that. I've never played a multi/dual classed character in the old editions because it led to much weaker characters.

10) Druids - Pretty much useless, and overlooked in the old editions, because of their insane need to balance everything. If their alignment was taken to it's full meaning, you'd have to kill a paladin every time you killed an orc, or the world would spin off into the sun.

11) Poison - Heaven forbid something poisoned you in 2e, or you'd be toast. The insta-slay poisons tended to be AWFUL at laying waste to parties of people under 5th or 6th level, because nobody had anything to fight it with save slow poison, which in turn meant that you had to get back to town quick or die from the effects :p

12) Clerical medkits - Clerics were simply medical kits. They served very little purpose outside of that in 2e I found. Yes, they turned undead as well, but they had to chew up terrible amounts of space with weak healing spells to make sure the rest of the party didn't die. Add to that a Thaco that wasn't really all that hot to begin with, and they turn into well armored pharmacies.

13) Orc and Pie - The orc and Pie module in 2e was HORRIBLY broken. The orc always blinded the party with the pie, which had poison in it, killing the lead fighter, then took an hour to run across the room, open the door, and escape with the party in persuit.. Worst $35 I have ever spent! ;)
 

Flexor the Mighty!

18/100 Strength!
The one minute round wasn't one swing and that's it. It was swings, parries, blocks, etc. The actual attack rolls were to see if you had hit during that time. I can't remember if 2e combat was that much different than 1e, but 1e combats went a LOT faster and were just as much fun. Balance never seemed to be an issue. As for slow advancement I think it was more logical. For example in the Living Greyhawk Journal #2 they list Yrag, one of Gygax's old PC's, as a 13th level fighter who adventured with Mordenkainen & the circle of eight, and is over 200 years old. But he's only 13th level? Using the standard experience advancement in 3e the PC's in my game have been adventuring for around eight months and are already 7-8th level. With the rate of advancement I would think there would be epic level characters all over the place. I think they made advancement too easy, I suppose for the new gamers who want more and want it now! A level 8 fighter in 1e was a battle hardened warrior who has been adventuring for years, in 3e it's a 22 year old guy who has been around for a year or so. I
 
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MaxKaladin

First Post
Forrester said:


Absolutely! One thing I really miss as a DM is the look on a player's face after he rolls a '20' on a die I've just asked him to roll. Or, for that matter, a '1'.

Because, of course, I'd simply ask him to roll a die -- whether it was for a skill check, or a saving throw, I wouldn't say. So whether he's just turned to stone/been disentegrated, or managed to miraculously avoid the Pit Trap of Doom -- well, he just doesn't know, does he? :). Ah, those were the days.

Oh, me too! Especially since I had a guy in my old college group who could roll high or low on demand. It didn't matter what dice he used or anything. My best defense against him was not telling him which way was 'good'. Now, with 3e, he'd know high is always good. Sigh.
 

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