5E Reasonable Movement and Athletic Feats?

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
I will say that lifting probably needs a better calculation, but unless someone has a vaguely realistic one that doesn’t end up making strong characters feel totally nerfed, and isn’t way more complicated than 5e normally is, I’d rather just leave it as is.

But a better equation that is still simple would be dope.
 

Charlaquin

Goblin Queen
I don’t find them passable. If you aren’t interested in working out something else, why post in the thread? I will never be friendly to “your goal is bad and you should just use what is already there”.
I don’t think your goal is bad, I’m just not understanding what your goal is.You started by claiming that the jumping rules were insufficient because real-life athletes can do better, and then countered arguments suggesting that those numbers are higher because of favorable circumstances adventures would be unlikely to encounter by saying realism wasn’t your goal. Even though your premise was founded on an argument about realism. So, fine, it doesn’t matter that the rules don’t reflect reality. I agree with that sentiment, which is why I find the existing rules great. They’re easy to use and not too bogged down in specifics or trying to simulate reality. That’s evidently not your goal either, so I’m trying to understand what your goal is so I can offer better advise for helping you meet it. Why is it that you want characters to be able to jump higher and farther?
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
I don’t think your goal is bad, I’m just not understanding what your goal is.You started by claiming that the jumping rules were insufficient because real-life athletes can do better, and then countered arguments suggesting that those numbers are higher because of favorable circumstances adventures would be unlikely to encounter by saying realism wasn’t your goal. Even though your premise was founded on an argument about realism. So, fine, it doesn’t matter that the rules don’t reflect reality. I agree with that sentiment, which is why I find the existing rules great. They’re easy to use and not too bogged down in specifics or trying to simulate reality. That’s evidently not your goal either, so I’m trying to understand what your goal is so I can offer better advise for helping you meet it. Why is it that you want characters to be able to jump higher and farther?
Because it doesn’t feel right for them to be so far below what a high school athlete can do.
Also, my rogues, Rangers, even Barbarians, are literally never laden with extensive Kit. Why should they be limited by the idea of heavy kit decreasing jump distance?
If the rule is going to work one way regardless of kit, I’d rather it ignore kit than make all characters always move as if weighted down with it.
Realism should only be referenced, beyond basic “up is up and down is down and ranged weapons have limited range” type stuff, to make sure the player characters aren’t being limited beyond reality.
 
Because it doesn’t feel right for them to be so far below what a high school athlete can do.
Also, my rogues, Rangers, even Barbarians, are literally never laden with extensive Kit. Why should they be limited by the idea of heavy kit decreasing jump distance?
If the rule is going to work one way regardless of kit, I’d rather it ignore kit than make all characters always move as if weighted down with it.
Realism should only be referenced, beyond basic “up is up and down is down and ranged weapons have limited range” type stuff, to make sure the player characters aren’t being limited beyond reality.
Sounds like, “let’s make a super complex rule to handle mundane things that rarely matter because a simple rule can never take into account all the variables”

Personally I use the rules as the minimum and if you want to attempt beyond the rule it’s an athletics check. That’s my suggestion. No need for some new rule or formula. May need some DMG advice to explicitly state this but I don’t see a need for more complex than how I handle it.
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
Sounds like, “let’s make a super complex rule to handle mundane things that rarely matter because a simple rule can never take into account all the variables”

Personally I use the rules as the minimum and if you want to attempt beyond the rule it’s an athletics check. That’s my suggestion. No need for some new rule or formula. May need some DMG advice to explicitly state this but I don’t see a need for more complex than how I handle it.
Adding athletics proficiency to jump distance is super complex?

how do you handle attacks?
 

Charlaquin

Goblin Queen
Because it doesn’t feel right for them to be so far below what a high school athlete can do.
Also, my rogues, Rangers, even Barbarians, are literally never laden with extensive Kit. Why should they be limited by the idea of heavy kit decreasing jump distance?
If the rule is going to work one way regardless of kit, I’d rather it ignore kit than make all characters always move as if weighted down with it.
But this is still an argument founded on realism, which you claim you don’t care about. Can you see why I might find your goals unclear?

Realism should only be referenced, beyond basic “up is up and down is down and ranged weapons have limited range” type stuff, to make sure the player characters aren’t being limited beyond reality.
So... Your goal is to use realism as a baseline from which characters can grow? That’s something I can understand. You’re essentially looking to make characters highly capable at baseline and superhuman at their peak. I could get down with that.

How about taking whatever distances you feel are an appropriate baseline, and setting that as the minimum. Then if players want to exceed that, they can do so with a successful strength check (again, set the DC as circumstances, goal, and approach demand.)
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
But this is still an argument founded on realism, which you claim you don’t care about. Can you see why I might find your goals unclear?


So... Your goal is to use realism as a baseline from which characters can grow? That’s something I can understand. You’re essentially looking to make characters highly capable at baseline and superhuman at their peak. I could get down with that.

How about taking whatever distances you feel are an appropriate baseline, and setting that as the minimum. Then if players want to exceed that, they can do so with a successful strength check (again, set the DC as circumstances, goal, and approach demand.)
That’s what I’m doing, yeah. The baseline would be based on real numbers, though, ignoring any fiddly concerns of gear and footwear.
 

Charlaquin

Goblin Queen
That’s what I’m doing, yeah. The baseline would be based on real numbers, though, ignoring any fiddly concerns of gear and footwear.
When you say “based on real numbers,” are you talking about using the distances real-life athletes can jump as your minimum distance, or about using the numbers on the character sheet to calculate how far they can jump?
 
That’s what I’m doing, yeah. The baseline would be based on real numbers, though, ignoring any fiddly concerns of gear and footwear.
Or as I would say - the only way you can get your pseudo real numbers is to ignore the fiddly bits that would make them real.

In this case if I am ignoring the fiddly bits to get to real numbers then the 5e assumptions seem real enough for me for someone that is moderately armored.

All you are doing is an attempted justifying moving the baseline from moderately armored to no armored.
 

dnd4vr

Tactical Studies Rules - The Original Game Wizards
Sure, and I wouldn’t be opposed to an optional rule that limits jumping based on how much gear you have relative to your size, but anything remotely satisfying that doesn’t need up feeling like it goes too far into restriction, would probably be much to complex, so I’d rather just allow the cool thing.

I like proficiency to jump distance, and jumping movement only using half movement. I don’t think I’d use the extended run up, just because it feels a bit more limiting than I’m looking for. Maybe increase the running start by 5ft for jumps over 20ft. Idk, I like things simple. But increasing your approach to gain advantage on a jumping check, Im into. Also, using Checks more when there is danger.
Well, one house-rule we use for jumping I forgot to mention earlier is about jumping in armor. You reduce the distance you can jump by the base AC for armor worn - 10. So, if you wear plate armor, your long jump distance is 8 less (base AC 18 - 10 = 8). It is a simple rule that reflects the difficulty of jumping when you are even a bit restricted by armor. For magical armor, you could say it doesn't affect it if you wish (we don't, but you could of course).

I've updated our DM screen with those new rules in place. I'm meeting with our DM tomorrow, but I think he'll approve as well.

Think your idea for extending the approach distance by a bit is ok, I can just tell you if you "run" only 10 feet, it is basically just 3-4 strides, and you really aren't getting up to speed. I've known jumpers with really long approaches, like over 100 feet. Now, they are accelerating and hitting their stride before going into their run, so it isn't like a full-out sprint before a jump.

Depending on how you handle encumbrance, I would lower the jump distance as much as speed is lowered. So, someone who is heavily encumbered (-20 speed) would have -20 feet on their jump (maybe to a minimum of 5 feet or something).

Personally, I love coming up with systems like this that can "model" real life, but still be fantastic as well. :)
 

Tonguez

Hero
Ok, I feel very qualified to chime in on this since I competed in track and field for nearly 10 years.

My personal bests:

22' 6" long jump (but this is with a 56' "approach")
5' 8" high jump (not great, but I am only 5' 7" myself, so I was always proud of it)
11.5 100-m sprint (again, not great, but pretty decent)
4 min. 23 sec. mile (again, not great but good IMO)

A "triple jump" is three "jumps" in a row, so not really useful in D&D unless you are literally hopping, skipping, and jumping over a creek or something.
.
John Carter of Mars making leaps across a Battlefield to reach the enemy ship, or the Hulk leaping away from incoming helicopters would be modeled by a Triple Jump in my mind - so quite applicable in cinematic play scenarios.
 

dnd4vr

Tactical Studies Rules - The Original Game Wizards
John Carter of Mars making leaps across a Battlefield to reach the enemy ship, or the Hulk leaping away from incoming helicopters would be modeled by a Triple Jump in my mind - so quite applicable in cinematic play scenarios.
Or, just three separate jumps? :) While some groups enjoy super-hero-like play, my preference for such things is due to magic. But, at any rate...

Jumping is just part of movement, it isn't its own action or anything. How far you can jump during your turn is simply limited by your speed.

Example:
A character with normal speed and STR 15 needs to leap across a series of platforms. Using the dash action, his total speed to "spend" is 60 feet. Each platform is 10 feet wide. He starts up 10 feet from the edge, required for the long jump. His movement is broken up as:

Move 10 feet,
Jump 15 feet,
Move 10 feet,
Jump 15 feet.
Move 10 feet.

That is his total of 60 feet. Now, if he needs to continue jumping on the next turn, it gets handled differently depending on the DM/table and RAW as interpreted by that group. Personally, if another jump was required, as a DM I would allow the last move of 10 feet to satisfy the condition for the long jump as I like to think of play as constant and not stop-and-start.

If the same character was a rogue or even better, a monk, using the bonus action allows them to dash for more movement during the current turn. Such a character could make another jump and move. The monk, with faster base speed, could do even more!

Even at just 2nd level Monk, using a ki point for Step of the Wind, could get 120 feet of movement, with the same STR 15 could jump 30-foot spans at a time!

Move 10 feet,
Jump 30 feet,
Move 10 feet,
Jump 30 feet,
Move 10 feet,
Jump 30 feet.

In 6 seconds? THAT is cinematic play in my book. ;)
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Even at just 2nd level Monk, using a ki point for Step of the Wind, could get 120 feet of movement, with the same STR 15 could jump 30-foot spans at a time!

Move 10 feet,
Jump 30 feet,
Move 10 feet,
Jump 30 feet,
Move 10 feet,
Jump 30 feet.

In 6 seconds? THAT is cinematic play in my book. ;)
Woh woh woh its magic you know oh oh. My fighter could be a EK and cast jump too? Not sure that makes it very cinematic. /js
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
Well, one house-rule we use for jumping I forgot to mention earlier is about jumping in armor. You reduce the distance you can jump by the base AC for armor worn - 10. So, if you wear plate armor, your long jump distance is 8 less (base AC 18 - 10 = 8). It is a simple rule that reflects the difficulty of jumping when you are even a bit restricted by armor. For magical armor, you could say it doesn't affect it if you wish (we don't, but you could of course).

I've updated our DM screen with those new rules in place. I'm meeting with our DM tomorrow, but I think he'll approve as well.

Think your idea for extending the approach distance by a bit is ok, I can just tell you if you "run" only 10 feet, it is basically just 3-4 strides, and you really aren't getting up to speed. I've known jumpers with really long approaches, like over 100 feet. Now, they are accelerating and hitting their stride before going into their run, so it isn't like a full-out sprint before a jump.

Depending on how you handle encumbrance, I would lower the jump distance as much as speed is lowered. So, someone who is heavily encumbered (-20 speed) would have -20 feet on their jump (maybe to a minimum of 5 feet or something).

Personally, I love coming up with systems like this that can "model" real life, but still be fantastic as well. :)
I like the encumbrance idea. I also allow greater jumps, and throws, for races with powerful build.
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
When you say “based on real numbers,” are you talking about using the distances real-life athletes can jump as your minimum distance, or about using the numbers on the character sheet to calculate how far they can jump?
Both, actually. And in both cases, if it complicates things in a way that isn’t fun, I ignore it. So, if adding prof (# from the sheet) gets me into the range of what competitive athletes can do, I’m happy with that. Trying to account for gear and footwear and how one has to land to get that distance, etc, would just be the worst kind of complication, IMO. At most I’d say that if someone is laden with extensive kit, they have disadvantage in checks in increase their jump distance.
 

Charlaquin

Goblin Queen
Both, actually. And in both cases, if it complicates things in a way that isn’t fun, I ignore it. So, if adding prof (# from the sheet) gets me into the range of what competitive athletes can do, I’m happy with that. Trying to account for gear and footwear and how one has to land to get that distance, etc, would just be the worst kind of complication, IMO. At most I’d say that if someone is laden with extensive kit, they have disadvantage in checks in increase their jump distance.
Ok, I get where you’re coming from now. Yeah, honestly just adding Athletics prof bonus to baseline jump distances seems like a pretty solid change based on your goals.
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
Ok, I get where you’re coming from now. Yeah, honestly just adding Athletics prof bonus to baseline jump distances seems like a pretty solid change based on your goals.
Agreed. I wish there was as easy a change for other stuff, some nuance that could be added to lifting and dragging for instance, but it’s a start!
 

dnd4vr

Tactical Studies Rules - The Original Game Wizards
Agreed. I wish there was as easy a change for other stuff, some nuance that could be added to lifting and dragging for instance, but it’s a start!
It isn't really that hard. If you want to show how someone with proficiency in Athletics would be able to lift more than someone without, allow them to add their proficiency bonus to the STR score before determining the amount of weight.

Example. A STR 10 character can lift 300 lbs. With proficiency his STR would be 12-16 (depending on the bonus), boosting his lift by 60 to 180 lbs.

Personally, I think this is way too much, and might use half proficiency or something instead, or some other method entirely. I suppose it depends on how much impact/increase you want it to have.
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
It isn't really that hard. If you want to show how someone with proficiency in Athletics would be able to lift more than someone without, allow them to add their proficiency bonus to the STR score before determining the amount of weight.

Example. A STR 10 character can lift 300 lbs. With proficiency his STR would be 12-16 (depending on the bonus), boosting his lift by 60 to 180 lbs.

Personally, I think this is way too much, and might use half proficiency or something instead, or some other method entirely. I suppose it depends on how much impact/increase you want it to have.
Well, what if we reduce the base calculation first? Or reduce the multiplication. I don’t have much idea what it should be, tbh.

Also, what about sprinting? You can’t really all out sprint in 5e during combat or anything other than a chase, and most other DMs IME dont allow increasing speed or bypassing difficult terrain with skill Checks. Maybe it would be less intimidating for them if there was a simple system to reference for these fairly common feats of athleticism?
 

Esker

Hero
Here's what you do: take the rules about jumping, and solve for the gravity of the planet to make those rules reasonable. Done!
 

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