Reasons why going down the Essentials line of thinking is a mistake !!!

Isn't the only reason to complain about Essentials really limited to Encounters? I mean, yeah, i'm upset that if i get stuck in an Encounters game that actually requires only using essentials (luckily i'm not) i can't play a bard (my favorite class, and yes i'm that annoying bard that hits on everything that moves).

The way i see it, I know the game and the rules, so i use a core book for character creation and i like all the choices. However if i want to bring in a new player and not waste a couple days teaching the pros and cons of different powers to the newb without forcing a pregen char on him, i can let him make a more streamlined character with fewer choices to help him get in. And if he's short on cash but wants to have a book to read, instead of picking a $35 PHB1 plus either of the others since 2&3 aren't standalone like both of the Heroes books are, he can grab one $20 book.

Cheaper, easier, same rules, honestly how can you complain unless you are being forced to use them?
 

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Actually, the idea that you can't play essentials characters in the same game as OH1-3 characters, or that doing so will destroy the ballance within the party, is more common than you might think.

There is no grounds to such an idea, IMHO, but its certainly out there. And, it should be noted, I have yet to hear from a person who holds that opinion AND has actually played in a game with both essentials and PH1-3 characters.
 

Actually, thats probably not true. I don't play 4e so have no vested interest in this argument. However, experience shows, DMs usually decide what is going to be used at their table. So unless we're talking about one beginner with a bunch of veterans. I don't see both at the same table. The DM is likely to prefer one or the other.

Both at my table, from the most fiddly Runepriest to the most basic (Knight).

What I prefer as DM is of little consequence in this matter. Since mixing neither ruins nor complicates the game, I am glad to DM what the players prefer, as long as it matches the context of the campaign arc itself.
 

I will bow to those with greater knowledge. Like I said in my original post, I do not play 4e. The thread title merely caught my attention. I will say as an outsider this seems confusing. From what I have read of OH1 choices and variety seemed to be going by the wayside anyhow. All the powers looked mechanically the same. The only difference in a fighter and a wizard seemed to be fluff. The mechanics were roll a d20 and add your class prime attribute.
If you hit roll you damage die and add your prime attribute. Encounter powers and daily powers were similar, did more damage a limited time per combat or day.

I really did not see a need for a cleric in the system, all "cure" powers did is allow a healing surge during combat rather than after. All abilities seemed to come from the character rather than items. This just seemed a superhero game rather than D&D. Am I missing something here? What is essentials taking away exactly? Your only allowed to attack ac rather than a save? That really appeared to be the only difference in the attacks. Like I said all else seemed to be fluff.
 

I will bow to those with greater knowledge. Like I said in my original post, I do not play 4e. The thread title merely caught my attention. I will say as an outsider this seems confusing. From what I have read of OH1 choices and variety seemed to be going by the wayside anyhow. All the powers looked mechanically the same. The only difference in a fighter and a wizard seemed to be fluff. The mechanics were roll a d20 and add your class prime attribute.
If you hit roll you damage die and add your prime attribute. Encounter powers and daily powers were similar, did more damage a limited time per combat or day.

I really did not see a need for a cleric in the system, all "cure" powers did is allow a healing surge during combat rather than after. All abilities seemed to come from the character rather than items. This just seemed a superhero game rather than D&D. Am I missing something here? What is essentials taking away exactly? Your only allowed to attack ac rather than a save? That really appeared to be the only difference in the attacks. Like I said all else seemed to be fluff.


At first glance, many people come to the same conclusions you did. However, in practice, the mechanical differences are significant, and the play experiences of a fighter, wizard, and cleric are very different.

Do all three get attacks at the same levels? Yes.
Do all three work on the same core mechanic of rolling a d20 and comparing an attack result to a defence? Yes.
Do all three, generally speaking, then apply damage to the target? Yes.

Where the differences come in is a combination of class features, the effects that attacks impose, and in the side benefits those attacks grant. Even when attacks impose the very same effect, where and how it is imposed can greatly alter how it's used.

A fighter is sticky. Enemies have serious trouble ignoring and maneuvering around one. Their class features punish enemies that try to move away from them or attack those the fighter is protecting. Their attacks tend to impose additional effects that reinforce that, or make the fighter tougher in order to allow them to take the resulting punishment that comes their way. Their abilities focus on those in reach of their melee attacks; you can do some ranged combat with a fighter, but it's not where their strengths lie.

A wizard is relatively fragile, and in most cases never wants to be in the fighter's place. Their attacks tend to be ranged or area, and impose effects that try and keep enemies away from them (and hopefully away from other fragile targets), rather than draw them in as the fighter does. They also, unlike the fighter, rarely target AC, which means they have a greater ability to seek out an enemy's weakness and exploit it. They can clear out weak foes in large numbers rapidly, or impose serious conditions on stronger foes. Their daily spells tend to transform the nature of the rest of the combat in which they are used, either adding entire entities to the battle, or changing the battlefield itself.

A cleric is tougher than a wizard, and far more likely to get engaged in melee (though they can work at range as well). It's not as tough as the fighter, though, and its attacks tend to provide buffs or healing to allies. It's not sticky, like a fighter, nor does it want to be. Unlike the other two, its entirely possible (admittedly not through PHB1 options) to have a character that rarely (or even never) does damage, yet still contributes to the group. That ability to heal often doesn't require surges, or augments surges. Even the ability to spend an unaugmented surge in combat can be hugely important, as most classes are quite limited in how many they can spend in combat. In combat is where healing matters most: an unconscious fighter isn't protecting anyone, an unconscious wizard's daily power usually ceases to function.

You do get some abilities from your items, but the designers intentionally shifted the bulk of your characters power to the character themselves, rather than what they carry. This was intentional, to make it that it was the character that mattered, rather than what loot you found. Is it superheroic? It can be, especially at higher levels, but Epic levels are called Epic for a reason.

Essentials doesn't really take anything away. Like we've said, they're just optional new versions of classes, that do not replace the prior versions.

The Essentials Martial classes break away from the At-Will, Encounter, and Daily power format, in part to simplify them, in part to make them more appealing to those that felt the structure turned fighters into wizards, and in part just to explore a different way of doing things.

They tend to rely on modifying basic attacks, which to some people feels more realistic. You make a normal attack, and it's modified because of what stance you're in, or what trick you just pulled.

Other Essentials classes may stick with the same power set-up (the Mage, for instance), but alter the class features. Mages get more class features, than the PHB1 Wizard does, and it's more flavourful. Power-wise, it still works the same as the old Wizard, and the old Wizard can take every new power that was added for the Mage, and vice versa.

Some are simpler, others aren't. Some get less choices than older classes. Others get more.
 

When I said superhero I meant the way the game felt and played , not the power level. It just seemed more like Champions or Marvel Super Heroes rather than Dungeon and Dragons. The flavor of the game just seemed to be missing as a fantasy genre rather than just heroic. I realize this is intentional and it has its pros and cons just like anything else. Its just like I say it doesn't feel like D&D. It feels like a totally different game, with the name slapped on. Like I it feels like one of the systems from the superhero genre. Nothing wrong with those games per se, they just aren't D&D. I've even played MSH, V&V, and GURPS. They can be fun, but they are not D&D. Like I say its mostly a matter of feel, and no one can tell another how to feel. I just found it curious, where the argument was headed. The system deliberately made characters the same, how can more of the same be ruining the system. Oh unless I missed something, it seems to be all about combat now, not exploration or role playing. To a certain extent this has always been true, but the other elements seem to totally stripped from the system now.
 

Like I said in my original post, I do not play 4e.

When I said superhero I meant the way the game felt and played , not the power level. It just seemed more like Champions or Marvel Super Heroes rather than Dungeon and Dragons. The flavor of the game just seemed to be missing as a fantasy genre rather than just heroic. I realize this is intentional and it has its pros and cons just like anything else. Its just like I say it doesn't feel like D&D. It feels like a totally different game, with the name slapped on. Like I it feels like one of the systems from the superhero genre. Nothing wrong with those games per se, they just aren't D&D. I've even played MSH, V&V, and GURPS. They can be fun, but they are not D&D. Like I say its mostly a matter of feel, and no one can tell another how to feel.

I can't really get these two posts to work together. You are talking about how the game feels and plays, but even though you haven't played it, it doesn't feel like D&D to you. I don't get it...??
 

I can't really get these two posts to work together. You are talking about how the game feels and plays, but even though you haven't played it, it doesn't feel like D&D to you. I don't get it...??

Eh, I can reconcile it for you. He's read some minor amount of books and through his experience playing other games has made some assumptions about how the game plays. How the game "feels" has different connotations based on experience. A game can "feel" like something to a casual reader.
 


I am finding this thread fascinating as I, like so many others, assumed that Essentials was a "dumbed down" version of 4E. I assumed that there were compatibility issues and so never bothered to look any further.

It seems that a great many people have tried the two together and have found it works just fine. If this is the case I can see where this would be useful as I have players in my group who are more into character generation etc than others.

I do have one question though -- what about feats? I would assume that essentials feats only work with essentials character classes. For example (and please excuse me if I get this wrong -- don't have the books at work) I beleive there is an essentials feat called Master of Arms which is basically "every weapon under the sun" expertise. If someone can help me past this point I can probably make some players in my group happy be retracting the no @#$%ing Essentials stuff in my campaign ruling. (And probably throw some money into WOTCs coffers).

Finally --- if this much of a misconception exists about the compatibility of Essentials and 4E exists -- shouldn't WOTC have done a better job of the initial marketing (or at the very least some sort of subsequent press release --- on the other hand with their "street cred" being what it is maybe nobody would have beleived them).
 

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