D&D General Reassesing Robert E Howards influence on D&D +

Oh, yeah, that one I'd sort of forgotten, but yeah, each class really does kind of map to a specific character in something, but the only category that is entirely taken from one work is the races all coming from Tolkien. Especially when you realize that elves, dwarves, and halflings really don't appear in any of the other sources, or only in a rather different form (IE there are elves in other related works, but not Tolkienesque ones).
D&D halflings were 100% hobbits, half elves and half orcs (I can't think of any pre 70s source except LOTR that has half-elves and half-orcs), ditto, but elves always existed in a weird sort of "maybe Tolkien elves but maybe not" because of how short they were. Gnomes are about the only non-Tolkien race for sure. (For Tolkien, gnomes was a term for Noldor - who were basically grey elves).
 

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Thomas Shey

Legend
Oh, yeah, that one I'd sort of forgotten, but yeah, each class really does kind of map to a specific character in something, but the only category that is entirely taken from one work is the races all coming from Tolkien. Especially when you realize that elves, dwarves, and halflings really don't appear in any of the other sources, or only in a rather different form (IE there are elves in other related works, but not Tolkienesque ones).

It gets a little muzzy with elves because Gaelic daoine sidhe/aos si can be awfully close in a lot of ways. Halflings its absolutely true, and I can see the argument with dwarves either way.
 

D&D halflings were 100% hobbits, half elves and half orcs (I can't think of any pre 70s source except LOTR that has half-elves and half-orcs), ditto, but elves always existed in a weird sort of "maybe Tolkien elves but maybe not" because of how short they were. Gnomes are about the only non-Tolkien race for sure. (For Tolkien, gnomes was a term for Noldor - who were basically grey elves).
Well, EGG didn't like people pointing out that his races all came from JRRT, so he sort of post hoc tried to fudge up elves a bit. Gnomes are not a demi-human race pre-1e either, so a late addition in that way, as are half-elves I believe. Half-orcs may exist in some source pre-1e, but only become playable there as well. So the 'core' races seem to all start out as Tolkienesque for sure, and then Gary starts messing a bit with elves, adds gnomes, and obviously has to change hobbit to 'halfling'. I never understood why he was so annoyed by the whole races thing though. Gary was a quirky guy though...
 

It gets a little muzzy with elves because Gaelic daoine sidhe/aos si can be awfully close in a lot of ways. Halflings its absolutely true, and I can see the argument with dwarves either way.
Look at it this way, Tolkien wasn't starting from nothing, his expertise was in old English folklore. Dwarves, elves, and various forms of 'small people' certainly fit within the overall genre, and JRRT got them from SOMEWHERE, including Celtic myths which are part of the substrate of English folklore. However, I would expect an entirely non-Tolkien inspired D&D (which Gary tried to claim at some points) to have Dwarves and some sort of 'Alf', but probably less humanlike and more just non-playable monsters. Maybe the answer is really these all came from Dave to some degree, I dunno.
 

pemerton

Legend
D&D halflings were 100% hobbits, half elves and half orcs (I can't think of any pre 70s source except LOTR that has half-elves and half-orcs), ditto, but elves always existed in a weird sort of "maybe Tolkien elves but maybe not" because of how short they were. Gnomes are about the only non-Tolkien race for sure. (For Tolkien, gnomes was a term for Noldor - who were basically grey elves).
Gygax did not independently come up with the idea of armies of Elves and Dwarves who might fight alongside human armies. The whole notion of turning fairy stories - with their Elves and Dwarves and the like - into more-or-less naturalistic fiction, where the faerie people have homes that might be visited and lived in, and inhabitants who might be interacted with, in an "ordinary" way, comes from JRRT.

And Chainmail only drives this point home: the Elves, Dwarves, Orcs, Wraiths, etc are all characterised in ways that draw directly from JRRT. Gnomes are just Dwarves that are weaker and so, I guess (without going back to double-check) a bit easier on the points buy.

Or to put the same point another way: Gygax did not read the Brothers Grimm and then, off his own bat, come up with the idea of Moria, the Kingdom under the Mountain, Lothlorien, Rivendell, etc. The "naturalisation" of fairy stories is one of JRRT's great contributions, maybe his greatest.
 
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pemerton

Legend
I would expect an entirely non-Tolkien inspired D&D (which Gary tried to claim at some points) to have Dwarves and some sort of 'Alf', but probably less humanlike and more just non-playable monsters.
Right. This is the key point: the notion of "demi-humans" who are economically, socially, politically, and culturally variants on humans, so that they can adventure with humans, have kingdoms and armies that operate on the same map and in the same way as the human ones, etc - this is all derived straight from JRRT. Chainmail doesn't even bother filing off the serial numbers!
 

There's is so much 70s-80s fantasy whether it be RPG or fiction that is heavily influenced by Conan, most likely because for people born in the 40s-50s that's what they were reading. It's why we're getting a whole bunch of Harry Potter pastiches emerging now.
Bit of a "yes but" here: Pratchett was British, and Howard (and Lieber and Lovecraft) were pretty much unknown in Britain in the 40s and 50s. They certainly were not part of pop culture. We know Pratchett was playing early D&D around 1975/76, and that is probably what brought him into contact with those authors.
 

Bit of a "yes but" here: Pratchett was British, and Howard (and Lieber and Lovecraft) were pretty much unknown in Britain in the 40s and 50s. They certainly were not part of pop culture. We know Pratchett was playing early D&D around 1975/76, and that is probably what brought him into contact with those authors.
Quite ironic since Moorcock was one of the authors to popularise the word "sword and sorcery"
 

Quite ironic since Moorcock was one of the authors to popularise the word "sword and sorcery"
Moorcock was editor of a British Science Fiction magazine in the 60s, and was personally responsible for introducing the likes of REH to the British market. As a Londoner he had more access to Americana, and cites Edgar Rice Burroughs as an early influence. Thanks to the Tarzan movies ERB was known in the UK.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Well, no. D&D Wizard spells came directly from Jack Vance's Dying Earth series. I thought everyone knew that.
The spell system did "sort of" that does not mean the Vances stories had wish spells ,magic jar, lightning and fire balls or Leomunds tiny hut. Nor that any casters in Cudgels story ever had the ability to cast the number of spells a D&D caster did. Re-minding ones self of a spell did not require a nights sleep in Vances fiction that I recall either. The original D&D core spells like lightning bolts and fireballs were made in Chainmail and had no memorization limits to speak of ... it was tacked on later.

If it was an actual Sword and Sorcery magic system it would fit better with martial characters. And would likely be mostly rituals / summonings and the casters would maybe even use swords (see also Elric).

Branching a little the miracles of D&D are primarily Judeo Christian including the clerics weapon limits.
 
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