Reconcile This - A DM Question

[Dozen]

Looking at the opinions, I think our best bet is analyzing the situation.

Depending on the nature of the aforementioned conversation, the Fighter's swing may not suprise the Ranger or the Rogue(given he's heard anything at all). If the Fighter ha shown signs of hostility before the blow, the Rogue could very well be ready for jumping into the fray.

Thus I have two questions to the OP.

1. Did the Rogue hear the conversation via a Listen check or see what was going on to guess at the very least?
2. Have the Rogue or the Ranger passed a Sense Motive check for a Hunch to realize their partner is up to something fishy?

If the answer is no to one of these, there indeed should be a suprise round involved.

EDIT: Welp, Water Bob posted pretty much the same thing. Credits go to him.

 

[nijineko]

Open, easy, terrain. Three characters: A Fighter, a Ranger, and a Thief.

The Fighter and Ranger stand next to each other. The Fighter is a bit of a hot head and doesn't like the nature lovin' Ranger.

The Thief stands 25 feet away, not involved in the conversation. He is, though, the brother of the Fighter, and the two are natural allies.

For simplicity, none of the characters wear armor, and none have any weapons but their fists. Each is a 1st level character, and all have the same DEX score. None have any special initiative Feats or abilities.

The player playing the Fighter finally decides to take a swing at the Ranger. Now, everybody rolls initiative, and we go into combat rounds.

The Fighter rolls a total initiative of 4.

The Ranger's nish is 13.

And, the Thief (25 feet away) goes on 23.





What I'm having trouble with is that we've got two people in a heated discussion that goes to blows, but before the Fighter can throw his punch, the Thief, 25 feet away, covers that distance and beats the Fighter to the first attack.

How do we reconcile that with logic and believability?

Am I missing some rule that would modify initiative or somehow skew events to a more logical order (which would be the Fighter and Ranger get into a fight before the Thief joins at the end of the round).

How do I make the rules believable for my players?

the fighter swinging (and everyone rolling initiative) was the surprise round. nobody can act (unless they have an immediate - and thus interrupting - action) until after the fighter's action is done.

had the fighter have won initiative, then the fighter would have swung in the surprise round, then on the next round, acted first.

what will happen instead, is that the fighter swings at the ranger, then the other two act in their order before the fighter gets to act again.

effectively, since the fighter started, your first round init count started at 4, and goes down to zero, then resets next round to top init.


(ps: i just read the op, not the entire thread.)

 

[CroBob]

What I'm having trouble with is that we've got two people in a heated discussion that goes to blows, but before the Fighter can throw his punch, the Thief, 25 feet away, covers that distance and beats the Fighter to the first attack.

1. Was there any bluffs or insights rolled to gain a surprise round by anyone?
2. The thief saw what was about to go down, and covered the distance before anyone was actually throwing any punches. The fighter may have taken a more aggressive stance or whatever, but the punch was simply not thrown, yet. If the rogue were reacting to the punch, then obviously he would have to wait for the punch regardless what his initiative was.

How do we reconcile that with logic and believability?

However you want to?

Am I missing some rule that would modify initiative or somehow skew events to a more logical order (which would be the Fighter and Ranger get into a fight before the Thief joins at the end of the round).

Surprise round.

How do I make the rules believable for my players?

Who cares if the rules are especially believable? Dudes got into a fight. Technically, there is not fight until the first attack role is made, though. If it's the punch the rogue is reacting to, then he can't act until after the punch... though he may be waiting for it with a held action, or something.

 

[Water Bob]

Technically, there is not fight until the first attack role is made, though.

Remember, though, this is not always true under the 3.5 rules. This is an area where the 3E/3.5E differ from the older versions of D&D. Combat begins and initiative is thrown when opponents become aware of each other--not necessarily when the first attack roll is made.

In the old days, when playing AD&D, I wouldn't start combat until the first aggressive act was made: The Party, in a dungeon, walk into a large room with a sewer bisecting it. On the other side is a goblin war party.

Back in the old days, I'd keep the game in scenes as long as possible and would not go into Combat Rounds until the first aggressive act was made (as in a spell being started, a bow shot, someone charging a foe).

This is incorrect play, per the rules, under the 3.0/3.5 rule set, where, as soon as the Party sees the goblins, combat starts, and initiative is thrown.

The only way to argue that this is incorrect, per the rules, is to assume that the goblins and the Party members are not foes--not opponents or combatants. In which case, combat does not start until an opponent is recognized.

 

[CroBob]

When you're going in initiative order, it doesn't mean you're necessarily fighting. If you're fighting, yes, initiative order, but not necessarily the other way around. I mean, it's not like you can be in the middle of town, talking to an enemy who's highly respected there, then, while talking to him, the DM tells you to roll initiative and the group beats him and kills him before he gets an action, and you can claim self defense at the town's court. No matter what you intuited about his intent or hostility, if you killed him before he did anything, you attacked and murdered him.

Similarly, even if the rogue intuits that his brother is about to deck this ranger, it doesn't mean him hitting the ranger is a reaction to the fighter hitting the ranger. He obviously didn't react to the punch if he acted before the punch happened. He reacted to something else, say the fighters demeanor, a sudden change in tone, his adapting a fighting stance, or even pulling back for a punch.

Just because you're moving in initiative order, it doesn't mean you have to attack people on your turn. If the rogue sensed a fight about to start, and took initiative (literally) to start beating people down, then that's what he did, and an onlooker who wasn't paying attention to the fighter and ranger would correctly say the rogue threw the first punch.

 

[timASW]

This is an interesting take--one that I've thought about myself but haven't shared in a post. It's kinda like a lawyer trying to use a different meaning to a definition in a court case. "Your honor, my client did put his lips on the marijuana cigarette, but he did not inhale. Therefore, my client did not smoke the illegal substance."

As controversial as it might be, it is a damned interesting look at the rules: The three characters are not combatants at first, but there is a point at which they do become combatants. Therefore, a Surprise round, by the rules, is legal and called for in this instance shown in the OP example.

As the Surprise rules state, a Spot or Listen check can be made by the Thief, with success determining whether he's aware that the Fighter and Ranger are at odds, about to go to blows. With success on the check, the Thief is included in the Surprise round (and can perform a Partial Charge, but is otherwise limited in action by the Surprise rules). If the Thief fails, then he doesn't recognize the Ranger as a threat to his brother, the Fighter, and therefore is on the ball and probably enroute to the table once initiative is thrown.

I think that's the answer I'm looking for, unless anyone here disagrees with the definition on combatants and awareness of them for the use of Surprise.

Thoughts on this?

They are definitely not combatants until the fighter swings so its just him and the ranger in the first round.

I would give the ranger init though. He's an experienced warrior and should have a chance to see that punch coming.

either way its ranger/fighter round 1. rogue round and everyone else round 2

 

[Water Bob]

When you're going in initiative order, it doesn't mean you're necessarily fighting. If you're fighting, yes, initiative order, but not necessarily the other way around.

I completely agree. There's an example, in the 3.5 DMG I think, but maybe the PHB, that shows a party coming across a group of Orcs in a dungeon, but the Orcs are behind a door. Initiative is thrown then, when the party becomes aware of the Orcs even though neither side is necessarily attacking.

But, also, from years of gaming, as I'm sure you'll agree, it's usually best to keep the game out of combat and in roleplaying scenes as long as possible because combat rounds halt the game pace to a crawl. I try to keep a brisk, dramatic pace, reserving combat rounds for combat.

Similarly, even if the rogue intuits that his brother is about to deck this ranger, it doesn't mean him hitting the ranger is a reaction to the fighter hitting the ranger. He obviously didn't react to the punch if he acted before the punch happened. He reacted to something else, say the fighters demeanor, a sudden change in tone, his adapting a fighting stance, or even pulling back for a punch.

Just because you're moving in initiative order, it doesn't mean you have to attack people on your turn.

But, I think you'll agree, most players will do everything they can to stomp out threats as soon as possible, and in this case, it would mean two PCs (the Fighter and Thief) jumping on the NPC Ranger. Some players will, of course, roleplay out the situation, even in combat, maybe even saying, "I'm way over here, 25 feet away. I wouldn't know to jump into their skirmish."

But many times--probably most times--players will instead move to engage, especially if they roll well and get to pre-empt the bad guy.

 

[CroBob]

But, also, from years of gaming, as I'm sure you'll agree, it's usually best to keep the game out of combat and in roleplaying scenes as long as possible because combat rounds halt the game pace to a crawl. I try to keep a brisk, dramatic pace, reserving combat rounds for combat.

Definitely. There are sometimes reasons to go in initiative order even though no combat is happening, but due to the slowing down of the game, it's reserved for when you really need to know where everyone is and in exactly which order things are being done in, combat being the most obvious and frequent of those situations.

But, I think you'll agree, most players will do everything they can to stomp out threats as soon as possible, and in this case, it would mean two PCs (the Fighter and Thief) jumping on the NPC Ranger. Some players will, of course, roleplay out the situation, even in combat, maybe even saying, "I'm way over here, 25 feet away. I wouldn't know to jump into their skirmish."

Sure. Hell, it's not exactly an uncommon occurrence in real life. If you realize your friend is about to get into a fight, you get over there to help him in whatever way you see best, as soon as possible, even if the fight hasn't happened, yet. And it also wouldn't be uncalled for for the rogue to bide his time and make sure it's going to be a fight instead of jumping in and forcing the hand. Granted, being a rogue, it's not the most advantageous strategy for him specifically, but he could flank in either case.

But many times--probably most times--players will instead move to engage, especially if they roll well and get to pre-empt the bad guy.

And I completely understand why. Initiative isn't often rolled when you're not sure if you're going to fight or not. I have noticed that calling for initiative makes the PC's a little spell-happy.

 

[Stormonu]

Eh, I almost see it working out like this (the guy doing the closeline being the rogue). [Warning: NSFW]

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hx92xT3knek[/ame]

 

[delericho]

Open, easy, terrain. Three characters: A Fighter, a Ranger, and a Thief.

The Fighter and Ranger stand next to each other. The Fighter is a bit of a hot head and doesn't like the nature lovin' Ranger.

The Thief stands 25 feet away, not involved in the conversation. He is, though, the brother of the Fighter, and the two are natural allies.

For simplicity, none of the characters wear armor, and none have any weapons but their fists. Each is a 1st level character, and all have the same DEX score. None have any special initiative Feats or abilities.

Okay, so far so good.

The player playing the Fighter finally decides to take a swing at the Ranger. Now, everybody rolls initiative, and we go into combat rounds.

Nope. At this point, the Fighter rolls Bluff and the Rogue and the Ranger roll Sense Motive, to determine surprise. The Fighter automatically gets to act in the surprise round; if the Rogue and/or the Ranger fail to equal or beat the Fighter's Bluff check, they are surprised and don't get to act until the first full round.

Now you roll initiative.

(Going forward, I'll assume nobody was surprised, as that's the case your example describes.)

The Fighter rolls a total initiative of 4.

The Ranger's nish is 13.

And, the Thief (25 feet away) goes on 23.

What I'm having trouble with is that we've got two people in a heated discussion that goes to blows, but before the Fighter can throw his punch, the Thief, 25 feet away, covers that distance and beats the Fighter to the first attack.

How do we reconcile that with logic and believability?

The Rogue was observing the discussion, saw that it was about to come to blows, and simply took the opportunity to act first. And that's not terribly surprising, because the Rogue (and indeed the Ranger) knows that the Fighter is a hothead and that he doesn't like the Ranger.

The "covers 25 feet and attacks" bit is an artifact of the 3e round structure. No, it doesn't really make sense, but that's just the way the game works. If it really bothers you, you could rule that every combat always starts with a surprise round (whether or not anyone is actually surprised), and that therefore each character only gets one action (so, move or attack). Although, by the book, even that doesn't help too much, because the Rogue can still Charge up to his move and then attack. (Though in anything other than a fist-fight, that issue goes away - unless the Rogue has Quickdraw or has a weapon in hand, he has to draw that weapon before he attacks, and while that can be combined with a move, it cannot be combined with a charge.)

Edit: It has been pointed out that the above is actually incorrect. The Man in the Funny Hat (next post) has the right of it. What we have here is a case where I've had a ruling in place for so long that I misremembered it as being the actual RAW. Sorry all!