Red Box discontinued......Smart Move?

[M.L. Martin]

More importantly... outside of Basic D&D, was there ever once, in the history of D&D, a successful 'beginner' box?

Define 'Basic'. Because there are at least two versions of the Basic set that have done very well--the 1983 Mentzer Red Box, and the 1991 Big Black Box/1070, with the Dragon Cards. The latter didn't do quite so well as the Red Box, but it sold about half a million copies and did better than anyone expected. (It's also the most extensive basic set ever in terms of level coverage, spanning levels 1-5, or nearly a sixth of the game's scope.)

 

[delericho]

More importantly... outside of Basic D&D, was there ever once, in the history of D&D, a successful 'beginner' box?

Outside of Basic D&D (and now Pathfinder) there has never once, in the history of D&D, been a good 'beginner' box. They've all had cripplingly short level ranges, been painfully dumbed down, had no reusable components, or all of the above.

The last good one was the old Black Box, which suffered mightily from being written as an intro to Rules Cyclopedia D&D, but being treated by TSR as an introduction to AD&D - essentially, it was really good at teaching the wrong game.

 

[TerraDave]

I think we know all four of those sets: holmes, moldvay, mentzer and the ambitious black box did incredibly well by today's standards.

Of course, it was a different market back then, and D&D had a different place in the culture.

What they need: another incident in some steam tunnels. Then those red boxes would fly off the shelves.

 

[M.L. Martin]

The last good one was the old Black Box, which suffered mightily from being written as an intro to Rules Cyclopedia D&D, but being treated by TSR as an introduction to AD&D - essentially, it was really good at teaching the wrong game.

Hmm...when was it marketed as an AD&D introduction? The Black Box received full-on support and connections to the RC line until the end of 1993/start of 1994, at which point 'Regular' D&D was discontinued, the Black Box was repackaged as "the Classic D&D Game" and sort of put out there as a standalone/orphan, and First Quest was launched as the introductory product (later repackaged as "Introduction to AD&D").

 

[Fox Lee]

Dwarves are the most popular race after halfings in my own experience.

Gracious me ^^; I don't think my group has ever had a halfling, fat or not. And we have had exactly two dwarves - one about ten years ago in a Warcraft II game, one in our very first 4e game that I ran for a few weeks while somebody else was on holidays. None of us seem to be even tangentially interested in dragonborn. So much so that in my setting, I just went whole hog and ditched the halfling, dwarf, gnome and dragonborn from the standard races.

OTOH, half-elves are unequivocally the most popular non-player race. Elves and eladrin are both very well-liked, revenants have been surprisingly popular, and we seem to dig shadar-kai too. After that, our character history has been mostly made up of homebrew races.

I guess it just goes to show how different gaming groups can be ^_^;

(Oh wait! We did have one halfling. He was the skinny kind - a monk bodyguard who disguised himself as an elven noble's child so he would be overlooked. He was neat XD)

 

[S'mon]

OTOH, half-elves are unequivocally the most popular non-player race. Elves and eladrin are both very well-liked, revenants have been surprisingly popular, and we seem to dig shadar-kai too.

Apart from the Shadar-Kai that fits my experience. I know one female player who played a Dwarf, another likes to play Revenants, some male players like Goliath and one played a Dwarf, but left to their own devices the most popular PC races are Half-Elf Human & Elf (inc Drow), in that order. Nearly all the Half-Elves are female, mind you, whether player is female or male.

 

[tuxgeo]

< massive snippage occurring hereabouts; although dwarvish snippage might be more appropriate? >

Dwarves are never very popular, although very much a D&D staple, I'd drop them next.

"Murderer!" [ Cf. "Boatmurdered" ("Dwarf Fortress"); or Cf. a bunch of other stuff ]

Dwarves are a staple, and one of the key ingredients, to the fantasy imagination.
(Haven't you heard the late Anna Russell's analysis of the Niebelungenlied -- about Alberich the dwarf, father of Hagen, "whose mother was a Gibich?" Of course, you must already know about the 13 dwarves in The Hobbit; and about the heroics (to avoid any lesser descriptions) of the fabled Binwin Bronzebottom.)

(Alas, I've never been able to accomplish Dwarves well, personally: my dwarves tend to be more intellectual than the archetype allows.)
(The solution, in my covetousness, is more metal minis. Ah, please let that be the solution! Ah, for the pocket-money to realize that solution. . . .)

 

[Zuche]

I can certainly see the argument for avoiding rules for small characters in a basic set, because it's one less thing to memorize. However, if you're going that route, then it would be best to eliminate races that don't have a base movement rate of 6 squares. That takes both dwarves and elves out of the picture. Races with an alternative form of movement should also be excluded, so that takes eladrin off the list. (Hey, if they can't start with a fly, climb, or swim speed, teleportation should also be off the table.)

That leaves us quite a few choices... but then there's the problem with unequal senses too. No, not the skill bonuses, which are fair enough. I'm talking about the different levels of vision. Well, if we're going to keep that level, we just have to get rid of drow (darkvision) and either everything with normal vision or everything with low-light vision. Since we've already taken halflings out of the game, we're left with either dragonborn and humans on one side, or half-elves, half-orcs, and tielflings on the other. Since the latter three races are all of human descent, it would seem rather absurd to allow them but not humans as player options, so human and dragonborn look like they should be the default.

And really, maybe it would be best to leave the dragonborn out too. Why confuse new players with racial options when they've still got to sort through the classes as it is?

This is the problem with designing a basic set: you know that there are different options that will lure in new players. Some will go for the option they see as the most alien, or the prettiest, or reflective of the underdog. We don't all have the same fantasies. Maybe the basic set should stick to humans after all, giving new players a chance to experience what the wider rule sets offer to them without overwhelming them out of the gate.

 

[delericho]

Hmm...when was it marketed as an AD&D introduction?

I don't know about 'marketed', but my brother had that set, and tucked away in the bottom was a "what's next" flyer - pointing him at the 2nd Edition AD&D PHB and DMG.

Edit: it is, of course, possible that he got his set just after the RC was discontinued, but before the Black Box itself was replaced.

 

[mcmillan]

On the similar thread over on the WOTC site Steve Winter chimed in to say they're not discontinuing it. Sounds like conflicting information with distributors telling stores it's not available.

Whoops! Browser Settings Incompatible