Red Box: Some Constructive Criticism

[Solvarn]

Observation:

This product was not targeted at experienced gamers that frequent gaming forum sites (who by and large are a subset of experienced gamer called "really experienced and motivated")

So for regular posters of this community to post things like "this product fell short of expectations" is silly; simply because your expectations are not what this product was targeted to meet.

Of course it didn't meet expectations for the posters in this thread.

Unfortunately the common sense of the posters in this thread falls short of my expectations. Lets start a forum thread about that and see how far we get

As to who the box is targeted at: New players primarily.
As to why the art is old: Parents who played might buy it for kids out of nostalgia.
As to why it's light on content: because it's aimed at casual play.

If you go all hardcore, it's time to buy the books.

I'm kind of tired of people not reading what I have to say and then completely misunderstanding my point.

The box should have had more material in it to allow a more complete experience for levels 1-2 for a new group of players.

Say, two pages for each class, maybe a page or two with some different gear listings, like rules for a bow?

I'll try to break it down more simply:

Old red box: Complete game levels 1-3

New red box: Incomplete, poorly edited advertisement to buy more material

Am I making myself a bit more clear? I would have liked them to flesh the box out a bit more and include a bit more to make it easier for a group to make characters together. Maybe more than nine magic items, although that isn't the biggest deal in the world given the limited amount of magic items appropriate for 1-2.

In my opinion, the red box does not provide the most accurate picture of D&D. It also does not really live up to its predecessor. It is a $20.00 advertisement for the full game.

They could have included more, and had people beating down the door at their FLGS to get the stuff to increase to level 3.

 

[JohnSnow]

[Nitpick] Elves, dwarves and halflings were actually races-as-classes in themselves; and halflings were more like thieves than fighters. [/Nitpick]

I think the short solo-adventure *and* full character creation rules were an ingenious decision; I always let new players play through the solo piece ("Damn you, Bargle, damn you!") and after that we created his/her first PC together.

There might have been less choices for your class, but getting to roll your stats and HPs plus equipment lists made it possible to create different kinds of PCs (even of the same class). Now every dwarf fighter is the same, and the player apparently has very little input outside choosing the character's name and appearance.

[Counter-Nitpick]Sorry, but no. I've got both my Moldvay and Mentzer pamphlets right here. And in both, Halflings totally lacked the special abilities of thieves and therefore have to be considered to be more like fighters. Moreover, the description says "halflings behave similarly to fighters and dwarves." So, not thieves at all.[/Counter-Nitpick]

As to the content, I agree with you.

The Moldvay set covered all of 3 character levels for 7 classes, and provided DM advice, magic items, and monsters in one 64 page book. In addition, the set was packaged with a copy of Keep on the Borderlands..

The Mentzer set covered all of 3 character levels for 7 classes, but expanded to a 64 page Players Manual and a 48 page Dungeon Masters Rulebook. It also included an adventure (~32 pages) as well.

If the DM's Book didn't have to include an adventure, and the Players Book was still 64 pages, there'd be plenty of room for the material I and others have suggested. Class & race writeups, character creation, and equipment tables would take up less than 32 pages. Printing the (16 page) adventure separately would free up that many pages in the DM Book. A substantial list of magic items would take up, at most, 10.

Yes, it's an increase. But it's one that adds substantial value to the product. I know WotC for some reason feels it's not in their best interests to design the Starter Set this way. I also know that NO D&D starter product has been as successful as the old Red Box, which followed the formula I'm talking about.

One definition of insanity is "doing the same thing repeatedly and expecting the result to be different." Given the similarity in product, I predict this set will do about as well as the last several D&D Starter Sets - which is to say "not."

 

[nnms]

In my opinion, the red box does not provide the most accurate picture of D&D. It also does not really live up to its predecessor. It is a $20.00 advertisement for the full game.

That's bull. Have you actually played it? It is a complete game in of itself. And in that game, you make characters that are the most long lived and iconic race/class combinations ever (the same ones you'll find in Mentzer + a few more options because class and race are now separate). You go on adventures, kill monsters and take their stuff. Spend time in a dungeon. The DM book has monsters and advice on making your own adventures.

It's missing shopping. Using items other than what you start with. And then the only other problem is that the PC classes differ from Heroes of the Fallen Lands. The transition for players will be jarring. Also, the level of typos and small errors is quite high.

It's not a $20 advertisement that you pay to see. For $15 WotC sells a single adventure with a poster map. For $5 more, you get monster tokens, a how-to-DM booklet, simplified character creation, dice, power cards, character sheets, all in a box instead of shrink wrapped.

 

[JohnSnow]

That's bull. Have you actually played it? It is a complete game in of itself. And in that game, you make characters that are the most long lived and iconic race/class combinations ever (the same ones you'll find in Mentzer + a few more options because class and race are now separate). You go on adventures, kill monsters and take their stuff. Spend time in a dungeon. The DM book has monsters and advice on making your own adventures.

It's missing shopping. Using items other than what you start with. And then the only other problem is that the PC classes differ from Heroes of the Fallen Lands. The transition for players will be jarring. Also, the level of typos and small errors is quite high.

It's not a $20 advertisement that you pay to see. For $15 WotC sells a single adventure with a poster map. For $5 more, you get monster tokens, a how-to-DM booklet, simplified character creation, dice, power cards, character sheets, all in a box instead of shrink wrapped.

The point is that the Red Box doesn't live up to the standards of its packaging. Sure, by the (admittedly low) standards of WotC Starter Sets, it's a "B" or maybe even an "A." But by putting it in the classic packaging, they're inviting comparisons to the Mentzer Red Box. Not just from us, but from any potential customer who remembers that set. And by the standards set by "The Red Box," the new Starter Set is a "C-" - at best.

Claiming anything else is frankly just being an apologist for WotC. Don't mistake me - I don't feel ripped off. I just feel that Wizards had the chance to make a D&D intro set that was truly magical, and they blew it.

 

[nnms]

The point is that the Red Box doesn't live up to the standards of its packaging. Sure, by the (admittedly low) standards of WotC Starter Sets, it's a "B" or maybe even an "A." But by putting it in the classic packaging, they're inviting comparisons to the Mentzer Red Box. Not just from us, but from any potential customer who remembers that set. And by the standards set by "The Red Box," the new Starter Set is a "C-" - at best.

Claiming anything else is frankly just being an apologist for WotC. Don't mistake me - I don't feel ripped off. I just feel that Wizards had the chance to make a D&D intro set that was truly magical, and they blew it.

So because I give it a "C" I'm a WotC apologist? Nonsense.

Comparing to Mentzer:
-- better box construction
-- books lack cardstock cover
-- missing shopping/choosing weapons/equipment
-- race and class being separate give more possible options
-- missing character creation summary
-- way less magic items
-- has tokens and a map
-- more errors/typos
-- solo adventure teaches you how to play and is for more than just a human fighter
-- full colour
-- doesn't transition well to next product
-- less than half the price using inflation adjusted dollars

And given anything higher than a C- makes you a WotC apologist?

That's just being unreasonable. I think your disappointment as to what it could have been is clouding your ability to appreciate it for what it is.

 

[ExploderWizard]

You go on adventures, kill monsters and take their stuff.

To what end? You can't use any of it and by the time you get the books that explain all of that the character you played is just as useless as all that junk you've been accumulating.


Epic Fail.

 

[Kobold Boots]

I'm kind of tired of people not reading what I have to say and then completely misunderstanding my point.

The box should have had more material in it to allow a more complete experience for levels 1-2 for a new group of players.

Say, two pages for each class, maybe a page or two with some different gear listings, like rules for a bow?

I'll try to break it down more simply:

Old red box: Complete game levels 1-3

New red box: Incomplete, poorly edited advertisement to buy more material

Am I making myself a bit more clear? I would have liked them to flesh the box out a bit more and include a bit more to make it easier for a group to make characters together. Maybe more than nine magic items, although that isn't the biggest deal in the world given the limited amount of magic items appropriate for 1-2.

In my opinion, the red box does not provide the most accurate picture of D&D. It also does not really live up to its predecessor. It is a $20.00 advertisement for the full game.

They could have included more, and had people beating down the door at their FLGS to get the stuff to increase to level 3.

Oh Ye of 30pt. font.. you're perfectly clear. You're just maligned.

1. The Mentzer Red Box from 1983 was complete because it was the entry point to an entire basic line of goods that spanned 4 other boxed sets leading up to Immortal.

2. The Mearls Red Box from now is not complete because it's not supposed to be. It's a gateway to the existing Essentials + Core experience.

So anyone complaining about the 2010 Red Box not being complete and forcing you to go to the FLGS for more books is simply not thinking clearly or out of the box (pun intended)

1. I had to run to the Child World in Medford MA with my 12 bucks to get Expert, then had to run to Excalibur Hobbies in Malden MA with another 15 to get Companion, and then I ended up going all over the place to get AD&D books cause I got tired of the Basic line. Note that the differences between Basic D&D and Advanced D&D are time consuming. So was moving to the companion set once you figured out name level stuff.

2. So if I get 2010 red box, I'd need to spend my money on Heroes of the Fallen Lands and whatever else comes out. The differences between Red Box essentials and essentials and core 4e are time consuming.

No real difference. Except one that you point out often. You'd like more group stuff in the new red box for the price tag of 20 bucks. I paid 12 bucks in 1983 or so for my first red box. Google tells me that the inflationary value of 12 dollars from 1983 in 2010 dollars is: 26.55.

1st Ed AD&D books used to cost me between $15.00-$18.00 in 1989. That's now $26.88 - $32.26 I can rationalize the loss in value due to increase in art and presentation.

I didn't get counters with my original red box, and I had to color in the dice myself To me that's good value.

Especially since no one in their right mind is going to buy a tabletop RPG anything these days and be "beating down doors" to get the next book. Video games are a deep and immersive form of entertainment now. Kids are tech enabled and conversant. There's no such thing as a "boring rainy day Saturday with no cool options" anymore.

Best,
KB

 

[Festivus]

To what end? You can't use any of it and by the time you get the books that explain all of that the character you played is just as useless as all that junk you've been accumulating.


Epic Fail.

"You can't use any of it"? Didn't you learn the core mechanics of 4E gameplay and have an adventure in the process (without anyone showing you how to)?

When the old boxed sets were out, my brother and I played it a few times before we moved on to AD&D and never opened that old boxed set again... unless I was showing someone new how to play the game.

I disagree, this isn't an epic fail but it could have included the stuff on John's list, sure... I just think they had to cut corners to keep price down.

 

[TikkchikFenTikktikk]

This product was not targeted at experienced gamers that frequent gaming forum sites (who by and large are a subset of experienced gamer called "really experienced and motivated")

So for regular posters of this community to post things like "this product fell short of expectations" is silly; simply because your expectations are not what this product was targeted to meet.

Oh, that's right.

I forgot that experienced hobbyists with decades spent enjoying their hobby never:

• introduce their hobby to people who have never enjoyed it before,
• reintroduce their hobby to people who enjoyed it in the past but stopped participating for whatever reason, or
• demonstrate their hobby to people who have misperceptions of what their hobby actually involves.

And since none of those things is true, they certainly never hope for a well-executed, well-priced product from the market leader in their hobby that they can use and recommend others use to introduce, reintroduce, or dispel myths about their hobby.

Certainly not doing these things for decades does not give them the experience by which they can judge a product they own and have examined.

Thank you for pointing out how wrong I have been to pass judgement on this product.

 

[Imaro]

I think the Dragon Age boxed set is a much better value in the end than the WotC red box. I just have to wonder how Green Ronin, with appropriate licensing fees to Bioware, was still able to afford such a great introductory set with very high production values and WotC can't top them.