Red Box: Some Constructive Criticism

[Scribble]

Anecdotally I started in a very similar way to this Red Box with the Black Box. That had a choose your own adventure scenario and a starter adventure where PCs built characters from the stats up.

True, it also had rules for character building outside the adventure... but by the time we were even thinking about needing new characters I'd already purchased the Rules Cyclopedia- "I can haz more of this new game?!?!?!"

The rules for character building went pretty much unused in favor of the new book.

Fundamentally I think the adventure/pc building thing works really well at both teaching someone how to build a character, while getting them almost instantly into what it's like to play D&D.

One of the big "hurdles" I've heard people say is that the powers/character creation part is basically a big wall of text. A new player might love the game, but getting him or her to want to overcome that wall of text is the challenge. For many people character creation is just boring.

The adventure based scenario lets the new player build a character as part of the game. They get a taste of what D&D is all about, learn what a character is, and how things work, and have fun doing it. It makes it interactive, which is a good thing- especially next to video games that have very interactive character generation.

Basically it boils down to Jump right into the fun rather then do all this boring stuff then get to the fun.

If they only had room for one type, adventure based, or normal rules based, I'm glad they picked adventure based. Sure- it cuts down on the "full functionality" of the boxed set, but in my experience this isn't that big of a deal, as once you're hooked, you're hooked- and want just about everything out there for the game... It's only when you get older, and become a long time player that you get more jaded about having to buy stuff.


As for the rules errors and such... Yeah they need to fix those. I'm hoping when they reprint it with the new cover, and it goes into the larger stores this will happen.

I think this version was largely just aimed as a collectors piece for us. The long time gamers that already know how to play. We don't need the rules to be perfect as 90% of these boxes are going to be looked at, then sat on a shelf for the next 20 years.

Who knows... Maybe 20 years from now the "Original boxed set with the Elmore painting, and the magic missile misprint" might be worth more then the second printing.

 

[D'karr]

Gave this Boxed Set to my 11 y.o. son a week ago. He spent sometime a few days ago creating his character. I ran him through the short introductory combat, straight out of the book. He ran his character and I ran 2 NPCs. Then he said to me, do you want to play? To which I responded absolutely. Guess what I'm doing tonight? He's running an adventure that he created using the DM's book and the monsters there.

Is the set perfect? NO. Is it usable? Absolutely.

Oh, and he's excited about the upcoming books. So as a marketing tool it looks to me like it works.

Not only that he's talking to some of his other 11 y.o. friends and inviting them to play.

 

[Imaro]

Gave this Boxed Set to my 11 y.o. son a week ago. He spent sometime a few days ago creating his character. I ran him through the short introductory combat, straight out of the book. He ran his character and I ran 2 NPCs. Then he said to me, do you want to play? To which I responded absolutely. Guess what I'm doing tonight? He's running an adventure that he created using the DM's book and the monsters there.

Is the set perfect? NO. Is it usable? Absolutely.

Oh, and he's excited about the upcoming books. So as a marketing tool it looks to me like it works.

Not only that he's talking to some of his other 11 y.o. friends and inviting them to play.

I'd love to see an anecdote from someone who doesn't have an experienced gamer to fall back on and is using this set...

 

[nnms]

I'd love to see an anecdote from someone who doesn't have an experienced gamer to fall back on and is using this set...

Considering enworld.org is an RPG site that started with enthusiasts wanting rumours of the up coming 3rd edition, you're probably not going to find too many people posting here who don't already know how to play RPGs.

I've seen a post or two on rpg.net from people who are new to D&D who found the red box did what it said on the box, and some blog posts, but once again, those are usually about an existing D&D player sharing D&D using the red box.

The nature of the medium might not give you the easiest access to the opinions of people who are new to RPGs and trying red box as they might not be the type of people inclined to post. Perhaps they'll be people who have general content blogs who might post about RPGs when they try the red box. Or someone with a blog on video games might take a moment to post a D&D red box post.

Getting the data you want is not going to be easy.

 

[AngryMojo]

1. The $10 extra is actually cheaper when you get down to play reusability.
2. It is a full game that goes to level 5 of play and doesn't use tokens or cards for gameplay (so why include them??)
3. The books are sturdier (with actual covers).

Dragon Age has higher production values because of the reasons I listed. I don't judge content at all, because I haven't played Dragon Age. For the price difference, however, based purely on stuff in the box and production value, I'd put the Red Box as a higher value.

Whether or not the game design and content of the books alters that value is a different argument, and one I'm not qualified to make.

 

[Imaro]

Dragon Age has higher production values because of the reasons I listed. I don't judge content at all, because I haven't played Dragon Age. For the price difference, however, based purely on stuff in the box and production value, I'd put the Red Box as a higher value.

Whether or not the game design and content of the books alters that is a different argument, and one I'm not qualified to make.

And I disagree since, IMO, almost everything with the exception of the map is of low quality... the books, the cards... even the tokens are of substandard quality.

EDIT: I find it mindboggling that you are judging a game based on the pretty shiny stuff it includes as oppposed to...oh, I don't know... the game experience it provides...That's just me though.

 

[AngryMojo]

And I disagree since, IMO, almost everything with the exception of the map is of low quality... the books, the cards... even the tokens are of substandard quality.

Low-quality cards and tokens for a lower price point are a better value than no cards and tokens for a higher price point. The fact remains, with the Red Box, you get more stuff for a significantly lower price.

 

[Scribble]

EDIT: I find it mindboggling that you are judging a game based on the pretty shiny stuff it includes as oppposed to...oh, I don't know... the game experience it provides...That's just me though.

Well, since that "pretty shiny stuff" directly adds to the ability to get right into the game experience, without any added confusion or need to get other stuff, it seems mind boggling to me that you would decide not to include it in your value statement.

It prevents the "What do you mean batteries not friggin included?!?!?!" moment.

 

[AngryMojo]

EDIT: I find it mindboggling that you are judging a game based on the pretty shiny stuff it includes as oppposed to...oh, I don't know... the game experience it provides...That's just me though.

I've made no statement about a game experience or content. I've made statements about production values, and the overall value of a game based off amount in the box and not content. In fact, I've made several statements saying that I'm not judging the content at all, because I have no basis of comparison. I'm sure Dragon Age is a great game, I enjoy Green Ronin's works immensely.

What I will state is that I believe the Red Box is an appropriate amount of value for the price. It's one of the only gaming sets that I can buy for $20, and your typical kid (target audience) or parent buying for said kid is going to enjoy the amount of stuff in the box. Meanwhile, that same kid or parent looks at the Dragon Age box, and sees less stuff for more money. Which one do you think will be bought?

In the sense of what is included in the boxes, without judging gameplay or content of the books, the Red Box is a better value due to it's increased amount of product for a lower price point. It's the same sense of purchasing a 14 oz. box of Lucky Charms for 3.99 vs. buying a 40 oz. bag of generic Lucky Stars for 2.99. You may prefer the Lucky Charms because they taste better to you, but the Malt-O-Meal bag is a better value.

 

[Imaro]

Low-quality cards and tokens for a lower price point are a better value than no cards and tokens for a higher price point. The fact remains, with the Red Box, you get more stuff for a significantly lower price.

Well, since that "pretty shiny stuff" directly adds to the ability to get right into the game experience, without any added confusion or need to get other stuff, it seems mind boggling to me that you would decide not to include it in your value statement.

It prevents the "What do you mean batteries not friggin included?!?!?!" moment.

Why would Dragon Age include these things when they aren't a part of that games particular style of play?? It's like saying monopoly is a better introductory board game than Clue because it has property cards and clue doesn't???

I think perhaps some experience with Dragon Age is necessary before alll these assumptions are thrown out.