Red Box: Some Constructive Criticism

[Scribble]

I disagree. Where the game goes AFTER the starter product is largely irrelevant to the design of the starter product itself.

Whether it's intended to segue to other boxes, to softcover books, or to hardcover books, a starter product is just that - a starter product. My contention is that the Dragon Age starter product is better than the WotC one. But, my real point is - so was the Red Box product 27 years ago!

I guess we'll just have to disagree here, as I think you have to take how it ties in with the rest of the line into account.

Making this product for D&D isn't hard. I grant the "Choose your own adventure" solo intro is actually a great way to introduce the game, so kudos to WotC for THAT. But, the box would be soooo much better if the Player's Book were to acquire 32 more pages, and both the Player's Book and the Dungeon Master's Book were to acquire cardstock covers (this isn't crucial, just nice).

In those extra 32 pages, you could cover full character creation with race and class descriptions, ability tables, and equipment lists (including a reasonable selection of low-level "common" magic items). The DM's book can mention only the special items (uncommon and rare). And the game would be complete - for 2 levels (although it wouldn't be that hard to offer 3, 2 would be fine).

All of that would add only a couple bucks (32 pages in bulk can't be more than a 5¢ a page). But the added value to the box would be immeasurable. It would be a true "4e Red Box" - possibly even, dare I suggest, BETTER than the original. And it would still be better than the original in one crucial way - it would be fully compatible with the REST of 4e.

I don't really disagree here. My main point though was that if they had to make a choice (sometimes 5 cents here and there matters a lot) and the choice was either give us all the bits and pieces, or skip some of them to afford standard Character creation rules- I'm glad they went with what they went with.

Boxed sets don't have to lead to boxed sets. What I'm hearing a lot of people say is that flaws in the box are acceptable because the Red Box is leading into books, not boxes. Alternatively, people keep responding with "Well, it is JUST a starter product.

If that's what you're hearing from me, either I'm doing a bad job explaining, or you're missing my points?

Boxed sets don't have to lead into boxed sets- my point is thats what IS happening in the case of DA.

In the case of the Red Box it's leading into the books.

(If you're comparing box one of DA to the red box, then wouldn't it be equal to compare essentials player books with DA? In the essentials books you get character creation rules up to level 30 for 20 bux... )

Now THIS part is largely based on my own anecdotal evidence about the black box. I feel that this Red Box is destined to be basically a throw away item- and that wouldn't change even if they put more character creation rules in there.

The black box had character creation rules outside of the in adventure build a character method, but right after that first adventure and I was hooked on D&D I went out and got the Rules Cyclopedia. After that the black box character creation rules went ignored.

I feel the same thing will happen with the red box. All it needs to do is grab a new players attention and get him into the idea of the game as quickly as possible.

I think the red box will succeed at that very well. It has all the parts you need to get up and playing, it has a really good price point, and there isn't a boring learn before the fun part.

I think new players will buy it, get hooked on D&D then move on to essentials leaving the red box to sit on the shelf (just like my black box.) The red box is essentialy a tutorial device. It's a way to have someone experienced kind of show you the ropes without having to have an actual person.

It doesn't need a better cover for instance because it's not going to be constantly referred to. Why give it something it doesn't need when you can better use that money elsewhere in the product?

It doesn't need character creation rules, because they will end up being ignored after the player inevitably gets the essentials books. So again why put money into something that will be unused as opposed to using it on the parts that will be.

IE Including dice, tokens, cards, a map, and a really great price point.

If you can add the additional elements without sacrificing anything else, then I'm on board, but I still think it will be largely a waste of time.

It just needs to get you up and experiencing D&D and understanding how the rules work in a fun way, after that I'm thinking it will be largely ignored.

Sure- you can argue that they could make it the first couple of levels and then make essentials move on from there... But then you have people upset because they have to buy the red box to get a complete game.

This is why I say we can argue whether delivering your game in bite sized chunks or delivering your game in an intro taste and then one fell swoop is a better methodology all day long... But I don't think you can compare the two products directly. They are designed for different uses.

So to those defending it, are you saying the new Red Box is perfect? No? Then what suggestions would YOU make?

Not at all- I just think people aren't taking everything into consideration when pointing out a lot of "issues."

I think they DO definitely need to fix the rules errors for instance.

New player should be able to take his character if he wants right into the full essentials line.

I'm guessing they will fix them once the new cover gets printed and the thing heads out to Target and Walmart, etc...

 

[JohnSnow]

BUT it's not only the cost of 32 more pages

if you put rules for all this you should also put card for all this and then the price is going to rise

Well, that's true - if you go to 3rd level. As I said, I'm less convinced the game needs rules to go to level 3 than I am that it needs the complete rules to go to level 2. Equipment lists, for one. If there were class and race descriptions, you could create a new character (after your first few) without having to replay the solo adventure. That would be nice.

And that really is just 32 more pages. And if the price had to rise $5 or even $10 to provide a complete experience? So be it.

furthermore since the box send you to the wizard online site if you get there you are then hooked and you can just download the free character builder (which have magic item, rules up to 3rd level and so on)

so while I would have liked rules up to 3rd level and all that you list, maybe it would have been a little of an overkill

with the 2010 redbox you can
+create a character
+run and adventure for your friends
+experience the rising to 2nd level, overcoming traps and enemies and the like

this is the core of the D&D experience

we don't know how much more would have gone the price with the added rules and cards, and furthermore we don't know how much usefull this would be (I don't think that if you are not hooked with the first adventure you will eventually be with another 2-3)

You make a good point about the online productd. If the Red Box had a code for, say, a 1-month free trial of D&D insider, that would be a pretty nifty option that might address all my issues. But it doesn't.

I guess we have different feelings about what constitutes the core of the D&D experience. I don't feel you convey the game's value-added compared with other games unless you make it abundantly clear that it's infinitely replayable. The current Red Box, while it hints at that aspect of D&D, doesn't really do a good job of providing it.

Getting more out of the Red Box than the start of a campaign is impossible. The inability to change your character's weapons or armor is particularly bad, but the fact that there's not enough magic items for real variety in a couple starting campaigns is pretty bad as well.

What sells D&D in comparison to a computer game is "you can do anything." Maybe I notice because I have always been "that player." Give me a dagger to start with and I want to "upgrade" to a short sword ASAP. Regardless of my character class, I also want a bow (or some other ranged weapon), because I know, intuitively, that there are times when distance weapons are better.

To tell me that "I can't" is lame. Is it sub-optimal? Maybe. But I should have the opportunity to make that choice - especially if "I can do anything" is what sets this game apart from a computer RPG. It's bad enough that there's no option for upgrading your equipment in town (Fallcrest doesn't have anyone who sells swords, bows, or even slings?), but it's especially egregious that you can't even pick up and use the weapons from the goblins you kill.

A step-by-step character creation summary. Race and class descriptions. Equipment lists. A couple dozen more magic items. It's not that much. And I believe the perceived value it would add for a new player would be huge.

 

[TirionAnthion]

Red Box Characters

Just wanted to make a quick comment. On page 31 of the Heroes of the Fallen Lands at the start of chapter 2: Making Characters resides the following boxed text:

HAVE YOU PLAYED THE RED BOX?
If you played through the DUNGEONS & DRAGONS Fantasy Roleplaying Game Starter Set, you now have a sense of how the game world operates. We recommend you rebuild the character you played, using the options available in this book. Or, now that you know what to expect, create and entirely new character to play!

This seems to indicate that WotC knows that a disconnect exists between the Red Box and the other Essentials products.

 

[Gundark]

Limited info is not the the problem here. Information that is almost completely incompatible with the content in Heroes of the Fallen Lands IS the big problem. The starter is a complete throwaway unless what comes in later volumes builds upon what is presented in the redbox.

It would be like the Mentzer Expert set being released and covering the basic rules again but changing the hit die for classes, XP tables, spell progession, etc. That would make the Basic set fairly worthless wouldn't it? WOTC has done the same thing here by turning the redbox into nothing more than a highly inaccurate preview for essentials.

Imagine the newb who eagerly grabs HOTFL to advance his 2nd level rogue to 3rd level. Haha -you thought you were playing the actual game for two levels is what he's going to see.

Yeah...the red box seems to be a waste of money. I dropped $20 for it thinking that I could teach my kids, which I can...but....I should have just waited for essentials later this month...I have to say I was expecting something similar to the original red box.....

Not to mention there are some sloppy typos

 

[nnms]

Just wanted to make a quick comment. On page 31 of the Heroes of the Fallen Lands at the start of chapter 2: Making Characters resides the following boxed text:

HAVE YOU PLAYED THE RED BOX?
If you played through the DUNGEONS & DRAGONS Fantasy Roleplaying Game Starter Set, you now have a sense of how the game world operates. We recommend you rebuild the character you played, using the options available in this book. Or, now that you know what to expect, create and entirely new character to play!

This seems to indicate that WotC knows that a disconnect exists between the Red Box and the other Essentials products.

Well they sent the red box off to the printers and then changed things. I guess this is an alright way to handle things.

As far as constructive criticism goes. if they sell out and reprint the red box, they should
-- make the rules line up with HoFL for all classes
-- Add a single page that describes some basic equipment and shopping on one side and has a list of magic items on the other
-- include a single page of 8x11 dungeon tiles you can photocopy and cut up

 

[ExploderWizard]

Well they sent the red box off to the printers and then changed things. I guess this is an alright way to handle things.

As far as constructive criticism goes. if they sell out and reprint the red box, they should
-- make the rules line up with HoFL for all classes
-- Add a single page that describes some basic equipment and shopping on one side and has a list of magic items on the other
-- include a single page of 8x11 dungeon tiles you can photocopy and cut up

But then they will have to reprint the beginning of chapter 2 in HOTFL to take into account the corrected redbox!!

When does it end!!!!

 

[Argyle King]

When I first heard about the Red Box, I was psyched. I had planned to buy it. However, due to a payroll snafu at work, some of my pay was delayed and I had to choose between Red Box and picking up a copy of Zombie Dice from SJG; for some reason I went with ZD. I now feel as though that snafu was a blessing in disguise.

After reading through this thread and after seeing the disappointment of a friend of mine who did buy the Red Box, I feel as though I made a smart choice with my money by getting what turned out to be (IMO) the much better product. Now that the pay issue is worked out and I have the money in the bank set aside for my entertainment budget, I still think I'm going to skip out on the Red Box. It doesn't seem to be in any way what I wanted nor what I expected.

I'm already on the ropes when it comes to my interest in D&D. It's been a long time since I've put money toward the system. I honestly felt as though the Red Box and Essentials might be my saved by the bell moment. However, I now feel as though RB was a haymaker which scored a critical hit against my confidence in the D&D brand. I'm no longer on the ropes; instead, I'm struggling to beat the 10 count. I'm not so sure Essentials will be what I thought it would be now either; I'm not so sure I have the motivation to get back to my feet in this ring.

 

[Festivus]

Well they sent the red box off to the printers and then changed things. I guess this is an alright way to handle things.

As far as constructive criticism goes. if they sell out and reprint the red box, they should
-- make the rules line up with HoFL for all classes
-- Add a single page that describes some basic equipment and shopping on one side and has a list of magic items on the other
-- include a single page of 8x11 dungeon tiles you can photocopy and cut up

...or perhaps they planned it as such. I don't work for Wizards, and until I see someone from design or development post otherwise, my guess is as good as any. Really, how many of you have played a game... disliked your build and tossed it out to start over again? I do it all the time, this made total sense to me for a starter product where they expect this will happen.

(I failed my will save and had to post again in this thread... drat)

 

[Stormonu]

I bought into the new red box with the hope it would be a nice, light intro to 4E. I was somewhat crushed with the results, especially when I saw that the player's book was only the solo adventure. It wasn't was I was expecting at all.

My experience with the old Moldvay set, I think, is different than most (The Mentzer set was a little past my time). Because of financial difficulties, the Moldvay set was all I had for D&D for well over 3 years (Then we moved up to AD&D when I got some 8th grade "graduation" money). My friends and I played that set to death, and I still would go willingly go back to it to play again.

I do not feel I could do that with the new set, and it greatly disappoints me.

 

[Cergorach]

I just had a copy to browse through and my hopes for an attractive 4th Edition starter set went out the window.

My main gripe with 4th is related to the presentation, with every edition pre 4E (basic redbox, 2E, 3E) when I opened the player's handbook, it screamed "Play me!" (it still kind of does). But while 4E has some very solid mechanics, the PHB looks and reads like a bloody (university) text book full with walls of text. I compare it to the spell section of the previous PHBs, Oodles and Oodles of information, but very little of it usefull right now. If your are a mage, only a few spells in your spell book matter, the rest isn't useful right now. If your a cleric, more spells matter, but there's still a lot you can't cast (yet). So that section (rightly so) went into the back of the book. In 4E it starts at page 50 and goes on for 125 pages, 17 pages of feats also doesn't help, nor do 30 pages of magic items (why they are in the PHB still baffles me) and the 20 pages are rightly in the back. Maybe it is organized in a concise, page-flip-friendly way, but imho it scares away way more players (even D&D veterans) then it attracts.

I had hoped that the new Red Box starter set would remedy the issue of information overflow and limit it all to maybe the first 3-4 levels. Organizing the book aimed at a new player that is interested in playing a fantasy game and not Maths & Dungeons. Keep the level 1 character generation stuff in one chapter and the next level in another (maybe even a separate booklet), cutting all the feats/stuff that isn't necessary. The new Red Box fails miserably, because instead of playing a fantasy game, the are reading a book where they can't even keep the reading order straight! A solo adventure is great for learning the game, but imho it shouldn't be the beginner player's handbook.

Some folks have and will argue that looks don't matter, that presentation doesn't matter, only the content. Well... You keep telling yourself that when you look in the mirror ;-) But it does matter to (most of) us, getting folks to start reading something is half the battle, the other half is getting them to continue reading. How can 4E succeed when they have difficulty with folks actually wanting to read the 4E PHB.

When I pick up a Pathfinder book it screams "Play me!", when I pick up a Warhammer Fantasy/40k book it screams "Play me!", when I pick up a WarMachine/Hordes/Heavy Gear/Dark Heresy/Rogue Trade/Deathwatch/WFRPG 2E/Battletech/Shadowrun book it screams "Play me!!!".

I have every official WotC 4E release in the bookcase (or still on order) and only a few Pathfinder books, so it's not that I hate D&D (4E). It just not doing 'it' for me, I had high hopes for the RB, it goes in a direction I did not expect. Which wouldn't be such a big deal if the direction doesn't really solve the problem I face, it just transforms into another problem.

I'm awaiting the other new D&D material, but if things don't improve Soon(tm) I'm throwing in the towl with buying 4E books/boxes. I'm (again) running out of book shelf space and there are other (more) worthy books that need a resting place on my shelves.