Redesigning and re-branding EN World

[reapersaurus]

I'm more worried about making it more useful to existing users (who are the important ones) and scratching a personal aesthetic itch,

Scratch your self on your own time, Morrus.

Seriously, though:
Unless you are a qualified webmaster, than I really don't think your personal aesthetic opinion should be paramount here.

That might sound blunt, but think about it:

You're advocating changing the look of something, when any change would require someone else's efforts to pull off.

At the same time, you have repeatedly pointed out to us that you dislike any change that costs you administrative time.

Well, a change strictly for your personal "aesthetics" (I don't recall seeing anyone else mention a concern) WOULD cost you time.

LOTS of time.

As to a name change, I guess you're within your rights, but I'd personally vote against it. Your words on the ENWorld change to you are still vaguely in my mind (I beieve you said the site should without a doubt Stay the Same Name!).

The reorg of the News Page would be welcome.
I have NEVER liked the layout, and always found it cumbersome.

Morrus - if you have recently acquired webmaster of server admin skills, please disregard the first point of this post.

 

[Morrus]

Thanks guys.

Could we move away from the title, though, and more towards redesign?

I'm not keen on anything like PHP-Nuke (I think it's soulless). I hear a few people saying that they'd like the site to be no more than 3 layers deep (and, conversely, others who have said that they'd like fewer options on the main page which would probaly lead to more layers).

Reorganisation is fairly important, because the site is quite a mess right now. It could be structured far better. Of course, without losing any of the content, a fairly clever site map would be needed.

 

[Morrus]

Scratch your self on your own time, Morrus.

Seriously, though:
Unless you are a qualified webmaster, than I really don't think your personal aesthetic opinion should be paramount here.

That might sound blunt, but think about it:

You're advocating changing the look of something, when any change would require someone else's efforts to pull off.

At the same time, you have repeatedly pointed out to us that you dislike any change that costs you administrative time.

Well, a change strictly for your personal "aesthetics" (I don't recall seeing anyone else mention a concern) WOULD cost you time.

LOTS of time.

As to a name change, I guess you're within your rights, but I'd personally vote against it. Your words on the ENWorld change to you are still vaguely in my mind (I beieve you said the site should without a doubt Stay the Same Name!).

The reorg of the News Page would be welcome.
I have NEVER liked the layout, and always found it cumbersome.

Morrus - if you have recently acquired webmaster of server admin skills, please disregard the first point of this post.

This is my time. Why don't you leave the decisions on how I spend my time to me, eh? As opposed to trying to tell me what I think.

You're advocating changing the look of something, when any change would require someone else's efforts to pull off.

Really? You obviously know more about it that I do! Could you share the name of this kindly assistant of mine, so that I might start assigning him tasks?

Seriously, though - what are you talking about? The change will be implemented by me. It won't involve any complex databases or anything (because that's beyond me) but why on earth does that preclude an html redesign?

Besides, with the great sprawling mess that the site has become, rearranging it will save me vast amounts of time in the long-run.

 

[Archangel]

uh...uh...wow.

I am afraid to offend now, but anyway...

I would like to say that 3 layers is probably a good guideline. I know that some of the flexibility and options may be lost, but most people in the world these days are fairly busy and already bombarded by work, family, medie, hobbies, etc. Too many layers or too much complexity and it will take a person longer to get to the content they want. When that happens, hard decisions may have to be made and well a functional vehicle that everyone can use is probably more necessary than a luxury vehicle that only a few have the time or gumption to use. More bells and whistles are not always better when only used by 10% of the community.

Another thing - Reapersaurus obviously thought that you had extra assistance with the site. His opinions on this subject, while blunt and misinformed were asked for (as were the rest of ours). I would feel bad enough had I made that mistake and been corrected in a polite way, let alone being told in the tone that was taken (the use of exclamation marks and the wording looked an awful like like you were offended and lashed out). As Furn_Darkside is fond of saying (usually as an apology for a perceived harsh response) - tone is lost on the boards, but that still seemed somewhat harsh (I've seen worse).

I do not know how you are taking our opinions or if it is what you expected, but don't make us feel bad for giving them.

P.S. - I am not defending Reapersaurus (heck dinosaurs with scythes can probably defend themselves), but am instead defending myself and others who have made misinformed statements and feel bad enough without having to be scolded.

 

[XCorvis]

Morrus,

IMO, the only way you're going to REDUCE the amount of maintanence on the site is if you use databases. Plain old HTML is more time consuming. If you can get a complex system setup (which you only have to do once) you can reduce the amount of work you need to do on a daily basis to just entering content. You wouldn't necessarily even have to format things, it could be done automatically. That would also make lieutennants a lot easier to handle.

Granted, this is not my forte and I understand resources are limited, but site maintenance code like slash (used on slashdot) is highly customizable. It might be worth looking in to a bit more.

My advice, however, is to figure out how you want the site to look and behave, then go looking for ways to implement it.

 

[LightPhoenix]

First, I vote for keeping the name EN World. But it's just a name, it's not what brings people here. Do what you will.

I'm really not fond of the right hand navbar. Everything on that bar can go on the left without too much of a change in design. It has the added benefit of making the main part of the page (the news part) a little less cramped and a little more prominent. On the same vein, you could probably remove the top navbar as well, and put that on the left if necessary, but I think it looks good where it is.

I like the colors of the site, it's not an eyesore, like black on white could be. You should keep that, IMO.

Someone mentioned opening links in a new window. Personally, I don't like this at all. You can easily open links in a new window by right clicking and choosing the option. If I wanted stuff in a new window, I could put it there. I think it's completely unnecessary.

The site would be much easier to manage with something more than html (like the CMS system someone mentioned above), and if you have the resources I would strongly encourage considering that option, even if it means relying on someone else to do the coding.

 

[Vaxalon]

So, what we're possibly looking at here is, essentially, saying goodbye to EN World and creating something new and fresh from the ashes.

NO

Leave it ENWorld.

Redesign yes, but leave the name, goofy as it is.

 

[GuardianLurker]

Wow...

Morrus -

despite Eric's reluctance (something I share), I have to admit that the proper use of frames (mainly as top level nav bars) works very well. The site still needs to be navigable without them, of course, but it can provide a great deal of unification. If you use the readily available Javascripts, you can even set up a faux menu system from the nav bar (like M$ and Sun do), though I'm not sure the site is complex enough to need it.

Another point in favor of a framed nav bar, is that it will promote some of the more "hidden" links; how many people actually visit the reviews page through the main page link at the top, compared to those who go directly to it? People gravitate towards the obvious.

As for the level issue, as I've been reading through this, I was struck that most of the reorganization probably won't involve "demoting" groups deeper into the tree, but "promoting" them upwards (probably to the second tier).

However, I'll also point out to the nay-sayers that the "deepest" tree currently is the community boards, which is exactly three deep (four if you count going to the actual posts). Everything else is currently "shallower". A perfect example of where adding levels (making the tree "deeper") would make a huge difference is the Links page (http://www.d20reviews.com/dndlinks.htm); putting each of those link groupings in a separate page would make the whole much more digestible. (As an aside, you may want to consider a "web ring" especially for the fan sites you list.)

As for the "unifying graphics" concept, I think it works very well (having used it to great effect on my site), though I'm leery of Dice - especially spinning dice, and especially spinning dice with sound. The "gems" concept would work well, though, IMO.

One final point to consider - this is (obviously) a content site; not something people come to see lots of pretty graphics but to get information. As such, it's going to be much more static than your average site, in terms of look & feel/navigation. At least, once you get it setup right. If you've gotten it to the point where all you're doing is providing the content (which I'm guessing you have), congratulations! You've done more than many, many professional web mavens, who dream of sites that run themselves.

 

[SHARK]

Greetings!

Well, Morrus, you are the boss, as it is your show here. Still, I would suggest that reorganization and such would be fine--but please, keep the name, and the color scheme. EN-World, though odd-sounding to the neophyte, has a history, and it means something. It pays tribute to Eric Noah, and is also a name that a great many of us have grown quite fond of. I like the color scheme--it is easy on the eyes, and good for reading a lot of. I've seen other sites, with other colours, and none of them have the best color scheme like here at EN-World!

Reorganization is Good.

Keep the name EN-World!

Keep the color-scheme!

Just some thoughts my friend!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

 

[Protean Sifter]

The Opinions of a Peon

As I understand brandishing a new brand would provide an oppurtunity to establish a new 'feel' to the masses of EN World. As one of the less vocal individuals on the board I have recently moved back in status, retreating to Those That Lurk. While friendlier than most online communities, I believe a change in atmosphere might provide the Community with a refreshed perspective. The rift between current EN Worlders and those looking to become part of the community bespeaks of stagnancy.
Giving up gaming altogether had been on the brain through a combination of this recent shift and the current lack of players in my small town.
Apology: Strong Opinions above were not meant to insult anyone in anyway. My opinions lack humbleness at times.
Without further ado I now present some Selfish Suggestions .
SS #1 :Articles on the Art of DM'ing: As a novice Dungeon Master I advocate the needs of all others like me. A series of Articles from the more experienced members of our community would fill a real void in the masses of cyberspace. While there is plenty of advice out there Practical Advice is of exceeding rarity. A semi-novice voice would also be of help.Support for Making Our Games Better is all that I ask.
SS #2 : Fewer forums: As mentioned before by some fellow patrons, portions of the message boards are dying out simply because of the amount of division present. I would like to advocate keeping division of a General,Rules, and Storyhour forums while allowing for a [tag] system. Anymore breakup may lead to either factions such as the case at Monte Cook's boards with the seperate DM/Player boards or excessive foraging such as case with EN world's current boards.
SS #3: A New Look: Simply to reclaim that sense of wonder I once had when I started visiting this site and these boards 2 years ago.
SS #4: A Personal Copyeditor: I really need to learn subtlety. Until that day some poor sap to edit my posts may be necessary. Eric's Grandmother must have a file on me.