D&D 5E Reducing Power Gaming

[Guest 7037866]

Rune Knight or Echo Knight? Rune Knight is ok but it's not any more powerful than most Fighter subclasses. I've never heard of anyone banning Rune Knight, that's crazy

Now if you meant Echo Knight then yeah, the Critical Role subclasses are not balanced very well and are often banned

Nope, RUNE Knight. Gone, so long, poof, adiós, au revoir, arrivederci, sayonara, auf wiedersehen.

• Two proficiencies (smith's tools and Giant--useful enough IME)
• Two runes (not one, but TWO!) - The player took Fire and Stone.
• And the icing on the cake: for 1 minute you are Large (cool to grapple bigger foes), but also advantage on those grapples and STR saves.. AND an exta 1d6 damage once on your turn.

Let's take a closer look at the runes...

Fire Rune. While wearing or carrying an object inscribed with this rune, your proficiency bonus is doubled for any ability check you make that uses your proficiency with a tool. (Not just smith's tools, but ANY tool!)

In addition, when you hit a creature with an attack using a weapon, you can invoke the rune to summon fiery shackles: the target takes an extra 2d6 fire damage, and it must succeed on a Strength saving throw or be restrained for 1 minute. While restrained by the shackles, the target takes 2d6 fire damage at the start of each of its turns. The target can repeat the saving throw at the end of each of its turns, banishing the shackles on a success. Once you invoke this rune, you can't do so again until you finish a short or long rest.

So, like other fighter features--short rest--which is cool. I prefer that, actually. But STR saves are not typically strong for most creatures. Even creatures who are strong lack proficiency. And RESTRAINED (so disadvantage on attacks and advantage made against it, not to mention speed 0 and disadvantage on DEX saves), not just "grappled" or something.

Fail the save, and not only is the creature restrained, but it also takes MORE fire damage each round it is restrained! Also, the repeated save is at the end of the target's turn, so it's turn starts (fire damage), it attacks (disadvantage), and then it gets to save...? Ah, no.

Stone Rune. This rune's magic channels the judiciousness associated with stone giants. While wearing or carrying an object inscribed with this rune, you have advantage on Wisdom (Insight) checks, and you have darkvision out to a range of 120 feet.

In addition, when a creature you can see ends its turn within 30 feet of you, you can use your reaction to invoke the rune and force the creature to make a Wisdom saving throw. Unless the save succeeds, the creature is charmed by you for 1 minute. While charmed in this way, the creature has a speed of 0 and is incapacitated, descending into a dreamy stupor. The creature repeats the saving throw at the end of each of its turns, ending the effect on a success. Once you invoke this rune, you can't do so again until you finish a short or long rest.

Oh, let's give yet another way to give a character darkvision! And why 120 feet? Stone Giants themselves are only 60 feet.

Sigh... Wisdom saves (often worse than Strength saves in tier 1) and charmed. Ok, charmed? Why charmed? They are STONE GIANTS, what do they have to do with charm??? Letting that go, it isn't just normal charm, of course not, it is speed 0 (so no movement) and INCAPACITATED! (even worse than restrained--the creature can't even do anything!) And once again repeated at the end of the turn. Not when the creature takes any damage, but at the end.

THAT is a LOT of features, power, options, whatever for a single subclass tier at 3rd level! Show me how all of that really compares to Champion (crit on 19), Battlemaster (some maneuvers), or any of the subclasses in Xanathar's?

Now, let's move on to 7th Level:

Hill Rune (7th Level or Higher). This rune's magic bestows a resilience reminiscent of a hill giant. While wearing or carrying an object that bears this rune, you have advantage on saving throws against being poisoned, and you have resistance against poison damage.

In addition, you can invoke the rune as a bonus action, gaining resistance to bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing damage for 1 minute. Once you invoke this rune, you can't do so again until you finish a short or long rest.

Advantage and resistance to poison. Nice, not OP or anything, so ok.

Resistance to (even magical!) BPS damage for 10 rounds (so... 99% of the time, the whole battle). This just about doubles the PC's effective HP for the fight generally. Sure, there are many creatures and attacks which do non-BPS damage, but there are many more which do.

And again, short rest recovery (which is good except how strong it is...).

Most tier 2 features are meh at best for many subclasses, but here you get another kick-ass rune not to mention Runic Shield.

Runic Shield. When another creature you can see within 60 feet of you is hit by an attack roll, you can use your reaction to force the attacker to reroll the d20 and use the new roll. You can use this feature a number of times equal to your proficiency bonus, and you regain all expended uses when you finish a long rest.

Forcing a creature to reroll after the hit (so you get to choose when to use it, and with a great range of 60 feet!) is pretty powerful, not to mention you get to use it 3 times (to begin with). So, not a "short rest" feature, but when you get multiple uses per long rest, in effect it is just as good and as your proficiency bonus improves, only gets better.

So, for 7th Level, instead of a meh feature, you get TWO very strong features.

All told, this is OP. It is well beyond anything fighter subclasses get in the PHB or Xanathar's. When the player wanted to use it I just skimmed it so decided why not. Having seen how devastating (yes, devastating) the Fire and Stone runes can be if a creature fails more than one save (since battles rarely go beyond 3-4 rounds), it is totally OP when lumped together.

I've never heard of anyone banning Rune Knight, that's crazy

Is it crazy given how I've shown how powerful this subclass is? No, not crazy at all IMO. Maybe you don't think this is incredibly powerful compared to most (if not all PHB and Xanatha's anyway) fighter subclasses?? But at the very least I hope you can see why I find it too strong.

So, instead of bothering to nerf the heck out of it, it is easier to just bane it for now. If a player really wants to use this again someday (I have no issue with the concept!) I'll revisit it maybe.

Now if you meant Echo Knight then yeah, the Critical Role subclasses are not balanced very well and are often banned

Sure, but CR sucks IMO and 90%+ of all 3PP stuff, etc. is not balanced (at all) and so I don't even bother with it.

 

[GMMichael]

This is why, I always say that it's better in 99% of the time to buff low powered features than to nerf high powered features.
Except Twilight cleric, that thing is off the scale.

and in the end as a DM you are in control how powerful monsters are, so players think that they got something and are happy for it, but in the end they got absolutely nothing as the world scaled with them if needed.

Sure, but OP's issue was that PCs/classes are already over-buffed. To which I say essentially, "nerf with permission of the PCs, or play something else."

Now, -bloated- is probably an issue that a lot of D&D-clones have, others just have weird or bad rules . . . I'm sure it's been said upthread, but the best answer might just be "cut the cord."

 

[Micah Sweet]

This is why, I always say that it's better in 99% of the time to buff low powered features than to nerf high powered features.
Except Twilight cleric, that thing is off the scale.

and in the end as a DM you are in control how powerful monsters are, so players think that they got something and are happy for it, but in the end they got absolutely nothing as the world scaled with them if needed.

Unfortunately, doing what you suggest works against you if you just don't want a high powered game full of superbeings.

 

[Horwath]

Nope, RUNE Knight. Gone, so long, poof, adiós, au revoir, arrivederci, sayonara, auf wiedersehen.

• Two proficiencies (smith's tools and Giant--useful enough IME)
• Two runes (not one, but TWO!) - The player took Fire and Stone.
• And the icing on the cake: for 1 minute you are Large (cool to grapple bigger foes), but also advantage on those grapples and STR saves.. AND an exta 1d6 damage once on your turn.

Let's take a closer look at the runes...


So, like other fighter features--short rest--which is cool. I prefer that, actually. But STR saves are not typically strong for most creatures. Even creatures who are strong lack proficiency. And RESTRAINED (so disadvantage on attacks and advantage made against it, not to mention speed 0 and disadvantage on DEX saves), not just "grappled" or something.

Fail the save, and not only is the creature restrained, but it also takes MORE fire damage each round it is restrained! Also, the repeated save is at the end of the target's turn, so it's turn starts (fire damage), it attacks (disadvantage), and then it gets to save...? Ah, no.


Oh, let's give yet another way to give a character darkvision! And why 120 feet? Stone Giants themselves are only 60 feet.

Sigh... Wisdom saves (often worse than Strength saves in tier 1) and charmed. Ok, charmed? Why charmed? They are STONE GIANTS, what do they have to do with charm??? Letting that go, it isn't just normal charm, of course not, it is speed 0 (so no movement) and INCAPACITATED! (even worse than restrained--the creature can't even do anything!) And once again repeated at the end of the turn. Not when the creature takes any damage, but at the end.

THAT is a LOT of features, power, options, whatever for a single subclass tier at 3rd level! Show me how all of that really compares to Champion (crit on 19), Battlemaster (some maneuvers), or any of the subclasses in Xanathar's?

Now, let's move on to 7th Level:

Advantage and resistance to poison. Nice, not OP or anything, so ok.

Resistance to (even magical!) BPS damage for 10 rounds (so... 99% of the time, the whole battle). This just about doubles the PC's effective HP for the fight generally. Sure, there are many creatures and attacks which do non-BPS damage, but there are many more which do.

And again, short rest recovery (which is good except how strong it is...).

Most tier 2 features are meh at best for many subclasses, but here you get another kick-ass rune not to mention Runic Shield.


Forcing a creature to reroll after the hit (so you get to choose when to use it, and with a great range of 60 feet!) is pretty powerful, not to mention you get to use it 3 times (to begin with). So, not a "short rest" feature, but when you get multiple uses per long rest, in effect it is just as good and as your proficiency bonus improves, only gets better.

So, for 7th Level, instead of a meh feature, you get TWO very strong features.

All told, this is OP. It is well beyond anything fighter subclasses get in the PHB or Xanathar's. When the player wanted to use it I just skimmed it so decided why not. Having seen how devastating (yes, devastating) the Fire and Stone runes can be if a creature fails more than one save (since battles rarely go beyond 3-4 rounds), it is totally OP when lumped together.


Is it crazy given how I've shown how powerful this subclass is? No, not crazy at all IMO. Maybe you don't think this is incredibly powerful compared to most (if not all PHB and Xanatha's anyway) fighter subclasses?? But at the very least I hope you can see why I find it too strong.

So, instead of bothering to nerf the heck out of it, it is easier to just bane it for now. If a player really wants to use this again someday (I have no issue with the concept!) I'll revisit it maybe.


Sure, but CR sucks IMO and 90%+ of all 3PP stuff, etc. is not balanced (at all) and so I don't even bother with it.

look from the other side,
champion and yes, even Battlemaster are underpowered and simple boring to play in combat.

champion is D-tier trash that no one should pick and battlemaster works for 2 rounds every Short rest and then you are a basic fighter without any subclass features. until 15th level. Hooray, about 12 levels too late.

Runeknight is atleast both mechanically and thematically interesting and fun.

 

[Horwath]

Unfortunately, doing what you suggest works against you if you just don't want a high powered game full of superbeings.

sure, but if you have wizards, clerics and druids in the game, whatever buff you give to martials, it will not break the game.

problems with power level, if it exists, is high level spells and some poor designed features that are few(twilight cleric).

one solution is to ban 6+ level spells and give more spell slots to full casters at levels 11+ to compensate:

like this:

2nd table is without 6+ level spells but keeping Spell Point budged of the class.

 

[DrJawaPhD]

Is it crazy given how I've shown how powerful this subclass is? No, not crazy at all IMO. Maybe you don't think this is incredibly powerful compared to most (if not all PHB and Xanatha's anyway) fighter subclasses?? But at the very least I hope you can see why I find it too strong.

Nope I definitely don't see it at all, and I'd be pretty annoyed as a player at a table that banned something so average. It's your table though so I don't need to agree

 

[Guest 7037866]

look from the other side,
champion and yes, even Battlemaster are underpowered and simple boring to play in combat.

Battlemaster was never touted as underpowered or boring to play before Tasha's and power creep reared its ugly head.

Champion is not boring, it is simple. There's a difference.

These are the baseline, certainly, but that doesn't mean everything that follows has to be "moar power", in fact, I would argue it is determental to the game when it is. Things need to be new, but balance with what IS already in the game.

champion is D-tier trash that no one should pick and battlemaster works for 2 rounds every Short rest and then you are a basic fighter without any subclass features. until 15th level. Hooray, about 12 levels too late.

I find this statement laughable, but hey think what you want.

Runeknight is atleast both mechanically and thematically interesting and fun.

Oh, sure, and over powered to a crazy degree when actually played.

Nope I definitely don't see it at all, and I'd be pretty annoyed as a player at a table that banned something so average. It's your table though so I don't need to agree

If you consider this "average", your style seems OP to me and way above what I like to play (which is fine for you, of course!). Do you even use anything prior to Tasha's still or did you just jump on board the 2024 boat as soon as you could? I would think it has the power you probably prefer? I know I will never play 2024 material, for example, so that should give you a good concept of what I consider overkill to enjoying the game.

But yeah, I challenge you to show how any of the subclasses in 2014 from PHB or Xanathar's offers as much candy as the Rune Knight does.

I'm sure if I joined your games I would probably leave after the first session (if it wasn't already clear beforehand that they style would not appeal to me). It is just a difference in tastes, so that's fine.

Any player who is "annoyed" with how I want to run the game is welcome to the door and should consider it. I am there to run a game we can all enjoy, but that includes me as DM! If someone wants a higher-power or more fantasic-style game, they would be happier elsewhere and I would wish them well.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

It should help if you don't tell the players you want to run a D&D 5e game...and then manhandle the rules so they aren't getting what the book says they are.

Instead tell them you have a homebrew D&D-like game you want to run that [fill in the blank with what you are going for]. Then if they are on board for that give them your house rules and say for the stuff not in the house rules you are mostly using the 5e PHB.

That should set their expectations in the right place.

 

[Thomas Shey]

It should help if you don't tell the players you want to run a D&D 5e game...and then manhandle the rules so they aren't getting what the book says they are.

Instead tell them you have a homebrew D&D-like game you want to run that [fill in the blank with what you are going for]. Then if they are on board for that give them your house rules and say for the stuff not in the house rules you are mostly using the 5e PHB.

That should set their expectations in the right place.

Maybe. In particular in the D&D sphere, a lot of people come in with a set of expectations and even if you tell them its homebrewed, you may well need to work to get them to not expect those sort of things. Years ago I had someone who came from OD&D play RQ for the first time, and he just couldn't shed his expectations, to his regret (and to some degree, mine).

 

[Brotton Goodfellow]

I have also found simply slowing down levelling has helped a lot. Been playing for a year (once a month mind you), and the characters are only level 4. I find the players really lean into the handful of powers/spells they have and use them in creative ways.