Reforms so you don't need healing surges

[ferratus]

That's a problem with the item in question, I think.

The quotes from 5e designers and testers imply that magic items aren't built into level advancement and that not all items will be easily craftable by PCs.

Sure, but take the wand of cure light wounds away, and you are back to the 15 min. adventuring day.

 

[Dragonblade]

I'm not married to surges, but I want HP recovery not dependent on magic or bed rest.

An all martial party (to use 4e parlance) with no magic at all should be a viable option in play. Meaning such a group should be able to explore dungeons, going through multiple encounters without constantly needing to "camp".

Such an option does not have to be default, but should be prominently displayed and mechanically supported at all levels of play alongside the default option. Not just as a throw away sidebar.

Basically, I want the game to ask me, do you want 4e style healing or "old school" style healing and let me play the way I want, while the old schoolers can play the way they want.

 

[ferratus]

I'd rather see LESS healing, not more. Can the healing surges, lose the wands of healing. No spontaneous casting of healing spells. Makes players more cautious about setting off traps willy nilly and fighting every single rat in the dungeon.

I'm not sure if simply taking away excess healing will do that. I think there has to be some change in what we do, rather than just going back to 1e. The reason they changed healing up in 3e and 4e was because the model doesn't work for a lot of people.

Spontaneous casting of healing spells forces the cleric into a medpack role. Without that option, he can prepare combat spells, utility spells, or whatever. If the party takes a beating, he can load up on heals to restore them. He's low on spells for one day, not every day. And he can still be a walking medpack if he so chooses, but it's by choice, not forced upon him.

I agree with you to a point but (especially at low levels), I think there is an overwhelming pressure by other players to load up on nothing but healing spells, because restoring hp is pretty much better for party success than almost any other spell you can cast. Spontaneous healing didn't solve this, because the cleric got to watch as the cool spells he could be casting were drained away for healing by his callous and reckless party members.

I think 4e did it the best way, by having specific slots for healing and specific slots for spells. I'm not a big fan of "spells that put hp into monsters for the characters to take out" but it also a way for clerics to do something other than healing.

 

[ferratus]

I'm not married to surges, but I want HP recovery not dependent on magic or bed rest.

An all martial party (to use 4e parlance) with no magic at all should be a viable option in play. Meaning such a group should be able to explore dungeons, going through multiple encounters without constantly needing to "camp".

The problem is of course that the idea that hp doesn't represent physical wounds went over like a lead balloon. When people talk about a successful hit, they almost universally describe it as a physical injury. Fire burns, arrows pierce, and swords stab. When people recover from hp loss without magic, a lot of people go crazy because they cannot accept the rationalizations that make healing surges work. From WotC's perspective, if one player at your table hates it, he is going to want to drive the business of your group towards Pathfinder or some other RPG.

So I think healing surges are done, and I'm not sure if you can bring it in as a modular option and still play at the same table. That's why this thread is looking at ideas on how to have the same effect of mitigating hp loss, without using some sort of "healing surge" system to put it back in.

So I guess I would ask, what would you do to ensure that the martial party simply doesn't take the damage in the first place (or has the ability to shrug it off) without putting hit points back into them?

 

[Dragonblade]

The problem is of course that the idea that hp doesn't represent physical wounds went over like a lead balloon.

I disagree. A significantly large 4e customer base says otherwise. Maybe not as large as WotC likes, but large enough that alienating them would make 5e DOA and split the base all over again.

When people talk about a successful hit, they almost universally describe it as a physical injury. Fire burns, arrows pierce, and swords stab. When people recover from hp loss without magic, a lot of people go crazy because they cannot accept the rationalizations that make healing surges work. From WotC's perspective, if one player at your table hates it, he is going to want to drive the business of your group towards Pathfinder or some other RPG.

I play with some Pathfinder fanboys and we alternate between 4e and Pathfinder. They have no problem with surges. The whole it "breaks my immersion" stuff is largely an internet meme perpetrated by a few old school players who makes noise far out of proportion to their actual numbers.

I'm not sure if you can bring it in as a modular option and still play at the same table.

Not at the same table, no. This would be one of those campaign specific decisions made by the players and the DM before they started playing. Do we want surges or not? And if so, they use them and include classes like the Warlord. If not, then they are excluded and they make sure someone has potions or a cleric is available.

Its pretty simple, I think. I don't see why the game has to make this choice for you. This should be a choice that each table gets to make for themselves. Thats the whole point of a unification edition.

 

[ferratus]

How about this: man up and fight hurt.

i.e.:

Yes, because when everyone has only 25% hp left (or less) they go right into the next encounter to face certain death. 'Cause that's manly.

Shut up and stop insulting my manhood. All it does is piss me off, and I don't want to hear it. You know what, everyone who keeps calling me a pussy is going on ignore, because you obviously have nothing important to contribute.

Also, I have a very strong suspicion that people who feel the need to insult my manhood over the style of playing RPG's doesn't have friends to play D&D with, making their input absolutely useless.

 

[Sammael]

As a part of the healing fix for my d20 revision, I boosted the Healing skill:

First aid
Action: Standard
Check: Healing + Wis (DC 10)
Take 10: No
Take 20: No
If you administer aid to yourself or an injured ally no later than 1 round after the injury has been sustained, you can restore a number of hit points equal to 5 + your Healing rank.

Treat injury
Action: Extended (1/2 hour)
Check: Healing + Int
Take 10: Yes
Take 20: No
You can attempt to treat your own injuries or those of another character. With a successful check, you can restore a number of hit points equal to the result of your check. No character may benefit from this treatment more than once per day.

Note that neither action requires training with the skill. Nevertheless, I made Healing a class skill for Fighters.

 

[ferratus]

Its pretty simple, I think. I don't see why the game has to make this choice for you. This should be a choice that each table gets to make for themselves. Thats the whole point of a unification edition.

Sure, but would you miss healing surges, or would you miss what they do? If there is a way to get the pacing, restoration, and all-martial party viability of 4e without healing surges, why not see what we can come up with?

This thread is about spitballing ideas. Whether there should be healing surges or not in 5e (as an option or not) is in the thread next door "Should 5e have healing surges".

 

[Dragonblade]

Come on people, we are all gamers here.

Its clear that different people want extremely different levels of grittiness and healing mechanics in their game.

I don't think its possible to make a universal mechanic that makes everyone happy but still feels like D&D.

This is one of those areas where the game needs to present multiple options and let each table pick for themselves. That's the only to make this work and to get everyone on the same page.

And for the people who are so unreasonable that their one true way to play D&D should be the only option, I can only shake my head and sigh.

 

[Wormwood]

Yes, because when everyone has only 25% hp left (or less) they go right into the next encounter to face certain death. 'Cause that's manly.

It's weird seeing people who play pretend-elf assign degrees of masculinity to such a twee endeavor.