D&D 5E Reimagining 5e's skill system using AD&D inspiration

[Quickleaf]

EDIT: I debated whether this belongs in Older Editions sub-forum or this sub-forum. Definitely I'm straddling both, but ultimately because my aim is to tweak 5e using lessons from AD&D, rather than the other way around, I posted here. If the mods feel it would be better in the other forum, feel free to move it over.

I've been noticing corner case scenarios crop up in my games where even though 5e provides me the space to create my answers, they're just not quite satisfactory, e.g. a PC wanting to escape from restraints and me not being sure what skill to ask them to apply Sleight of Hand or Acrobatics (I let the player choose), a PC talking the helm of a seagoing vessel (I waved the need for a roll), a PC wanting to decipher some cryptography without having the Linguist feat (kinda just roleplayed this by providing some good hints), drinking contest (went with opposed CON saves), hitting the streets to gather information (had everyone roll on a rumor table), trying to discern whether to call for a Performance or Persuasion check for a PC engaging in some cunning oratory, and of course figuring out how to respond to players inevitably asking "what do I know about this monster?"

What I think I'm noticing is that 5e's skill system, in its very wise effort to consolidate skills, also lumps together things that come at the cost of ways for players to define their characters. It's a really subtle effect, that I'm only just now starting to get a pulse on, and even now I'm not certain how much is just the eccentricities of my DMing style / gaming group vs. whether this is actually a broader phenomenon other gaming groups experience.

Anyhow, to better see the gaps, to help myself articulate what I'm observing, and perhaps to homebrew something, I looked back at the list of AD&D non-weapon proficiencies and I tried assigning them to the various 5e skills, tools (crafting), tools (other), and then a various assortment of 5e's mechanics where certain non-weapon proficiencies are expressed.

Some of my observations so far:

1. Missing Skill Clusters: There are a few proficiency clusters missing from 5e, such as Appraise, Engineering, High Society, Omens, Planewalking, Streetwise, Trail Lore, and Trapping. And an argument could be made for combining several things into a Seamanship skill.
2. Craft Skill: There's a strong argument for a Craft skill, as so many non-weapon proficiencies (tools in 5e parlance) fit under that heading.
3. Knowledge Skills: There are so many types of Sage Knowledge that don't have equivalencies in 5e, let alone in other AD&D non-weapon proficiencies, that the choice of which can say a lot about a character. Folklore, for example, is one that's woefully absent from 5e. So is Mathematics, unless in the D&Dverse "applied maths" is either "gambling" or speaking Modron.
4. Class features & feats have subsumed certain proficiencies... without much rhyme or reason AFAICT.
5. Dungeoneering Skill: There are a lot of non-weapon proficiencies associated with Survival... so much so that a new skill could be separated from it, something akin to 4e's Dungeoneering (basically Surface World Survival vs. Underdark/Underground Survival).
6. Voice Skill? Bye-bye Performance? Deception includes this weird sub-category of "sound imitating" proficiencies. These could be siphoned off, combined with Ventriloquism, and merged with "chanting", "oratory", "poetry", and "singing" as a new Voice skill. This might clear up some of the ambiguity around Performance, for example that when you're acting in a role to fool someone that's Deception (or possibly disguise). I'm not 100% on this, but the whole idea of having a Performance skill and musical instrument tool proficiencies just seems silly - why design that kind of ambiguity into the game?
7. Overlap as opportunity: 5e doesn't make the same distinctions as AD&D between characters – in 5e a river boatsman and a ocean ship captain both take the tool proficiency "water vehicles." The diversity of non-weapon proficiencies in AD&D suggests a way to give that difference mechanical heft by making "mosaic cluster" skills, e.g. the "Riverways" skill might include river boating, freshwater fishing, geography pertaining to rivers, folklore about creatures dwelling in or near rivers, and potentially even rope use. Whereas the "Seamanship" skill might include piloting ocean-going ships, navigation via sextant/stars, practical oceanography, sea fishing, folklore about creatures of the sea, and potentially rope use as well.

Here's the list I assembled...

Spoiler

Athletics
%Climb Walls (Rogue)
Jumping
Rowing
Spelunking (Ranger, Warrior)*
Swimming

Acrobatics
Escape (Ninja)
Fine Balance (Rogue, Warrior)
Tightrope Walking
Tumbling

Sleight of Hand
Chicanery
Juggling
%Pickpockets (Rogue)
Prestidigitation (Wizard)

Stealth
Ambush (Rogue)
Hiding (Humanoids)
Trailing (Rogue)

Arcana
Arcanology (Wizard)
Spellcraft
Tactics of Magic (Wizard)
Thaumaturgy (Wizard)

History
Ancient History
Local History
Local Dwarf History (Dwarf)
Sage Knowledge: Heraldry (Priest, Wizard)
Sage Knowledge: History (Priest, Wizard)

Investigation
Investigation (Priest)
Research (Wizard)

Nature
Agriculture
Animal Lore
Astronomy
Fungi Recognition (Dwarf)
Sage Knowledge: Geology (Priest, Wizard)
Weather Sense

Religion
Religion
Necrology (Necromancer)
Sage Knowledge: theology (Priest, Wizard)
Undead Lore & Knowledge

Animal Handling
Animal Handling
Animal Training
Falconry
Riding, Airborne
Riding, Land-based
Riding, Sea-based

Insight
–

Medicine
Anatomy (Wizard)
Diagnostics (Paladin, Priest)
Healing
Hypnosis (Psionicist, Wizard) = cure habit, addiction, or recall traumatic event
Sage Knowledge: Medicine (Priest, Wizard)
Veterinary Healing (Priest, Ranger)

Perception
Alertness
Detect Signing (Ninja)
Observation

Survival
Caving*
Distance Sense
Fire-building
Fishing
Foraging (Ranger, Rogue, Warrior)
Hunting
Mountaineering
Orienteering
Sound Analysis (Dwarf)*
Survival
Survival, Underground (Dwarf)*
Tracking
Underground Navigation (Dwarf)*

Deception
Acting (Bard)
Animal Noise (Rogue)
Enamor (Ninja)
Fast-Talking (Rogue)
Fortune-telling (Rogue)
Sound Imitation
Voice Mimicry (Rogue)

Intimidation
Intimidation

Performance
Acting (Bard)
Chanting (Bard)
Crowd Working (Bard)
Dancing
Oratory (Paladin, Priest, Warrior)
Poetry
Singing
Whistling/Humming (Bard)

Persuasion
Bartering
Etiquette
Persuasion

Tools (crafting)
Alchemy (Wizard)
Armorer
Artistic Ability
Blacksmithing
Boatwright (Dwarf)
Bookbinding (Priest, Wizard)
Bowyer/Fletcher
Brewing
Carpentry
Cartography
Cheesemaking
Clockwork Creation (Sha’ir)
Cobbling
Cooking
Craft Instrument (Bard)
Forgery
Gem Cutting
Glassblowing (Wizard)
Herbalism
Leatherworking
Locksmithing (Rogue, Dwarf)
Papermaking (Priest, Wizard)
Painting
Pottery
Scribe (Priest, Wizard)
Sculpting
Seamstress/Tailor & Tailoring
Stonemasonry
Weaponsmithing
Weaving
Winemaking

Tools (other)
Boating
Charioteering
Disguise & Begging (Rogue) = disguise part of it
Gaming
Giant Kite Flying (Ninja)
Musical Instrument
Navigation
Venom Handling (Necromancer) & Toxicology (Ninja)

#uncategorized (core rules)
Concentration (Wizard) = proficiency in Con saves

#uncategorized (class features)
Camouflage (Ranger, Rogue, Warrior) = HIDE IN PLAIN SIGHT
Dirty Fighting (Rogue, Warrior) = Battlemaster’s Feinting Attack
Iron Will (Priest, Warrior) = Samura’s Strength Before Death (& Fey Ancestry)
Signature Spells (Wizard) = Wizard’s Signature Spell
Steady Hand (Rogue, Warrior) = Rogue’s Aim
Style Analysis (Ninja) = Battlemaster’s Know Your Enemy
Trouble Sense = Barbarian’s Danger Sense
Water Walking (Ninja) = Monk’s 9th level Unarmored Movement
Wild Fighting (Humanoids) = Barbarian’s Reckless Attack

#uncategorized (downtime)
Administration (Priest)
Alms (Priest)
Begging (Rogue) = income generating part of it

#uncategorized (feats)
Ambidexterity (Rogue, Warrior) = Dual Wielder
Cryptography (Bard, Rogue, Wizard) & Sage Knowledge: Language and Cryptography (Priest, Wizard) = Linguist
Direction Sense = Keen Mind
Leadership (Warrior) = Inspiring Leader
Lip Reading = Observant
Quickness (Rogue, Warrior) = Alertness +5 initiative
Steady Hand (Rogue, Warrior) = Sharpshooter
Time Sense = Keen Mind
Weapon Improvisation = Tavern Brawler

#uncategorized (fighting styles)
Blindfighting = Blind Fighting
Close-quarter Fighting = ?
Natural Fighting (Humanoids)
Throwing = Thrown Weapon Fighting

#uncategorized (spells)
Hypnosis = calm emotion, suggestion
Spirit Lore (Necromancer) = augury, speak with dead

#uncategorized ???
Assimilation (Ninja)
Jousting (Paladin, Warrior)
Mining
Netherworld Knowledge (Necromancer)
Quick Study (Ninja)
Rope Use
Sage Knowledge (Priest, Wizard): alchemy, art, architecture, botany, cartography, chemistry, folklore, geneaology, geography, geology, mathematics, meteorology, music, myconology, oceanology, philosophy, physics, planes, sociology, toxicology, zoology
Seamanship
Signaling
Sign Language (Dwarf)
Smelting (Dwarf)
Tactics
Ventriloquism

Appraise
Appraising
Looting (Rogue)

Endurance
Deep Diving
Drinking
Eating
Endurance
Hold Breath (Ninja)
Running
Slow Respiration (Dwarf)

Engineering
Engineering
Sage Knowledge: Engineering

High Society
Bureaucracy (Paladin, Priest, Rogue)
Heraldry
Law (Paladin, Priest, Warrior) & Sage Knowledge: Law (Priest, Wizard)
Politics

Omens
Astrology
Dream Interpretation (Shaman)
Numeracy (Sha’ir)
Numerology (Sha’ir)
Omen Interpretation (Shaman)
Omen Reading (Priest, Wizard)
Soothsaying

Planewalking
Chaos Shaping
Planology
Planar Direction Sense
Planar Sense
Planar Survival
Spell Recovery

Psionics
Harness Subconscious (Psionicist)
Meditative Focus (Psionicist)
Rejuvenation (Psionicist)

Streetwise
City Familiarity (Ninja)
Information Gathering (Rogue)
Underclass (Ninja)

Trail Lore
Trail Marking (Ranger, Warrior)
Trail Signs (Ranger, Rogue, Warrior)

Trapping
Pest Control (Rogue, Dwarf)
Set Snares

 

[Neonchameleon]

My immediate reaction: No skill system is perfect - but your system has created well over 100 skills both to track and for the characters to be incompetent at.

 

[Quickleaf]

My immediate reaction: No skill system is perfect - but your system has created well over 100 skills both to track and for the characters to be incompetent at.

I think you misunderstood me. Not proposing >100 skills. More something like adding 10-12 to the existing list. Very different order of magnitude.

Also, with my idea about "mosaic clusters" (point #7), if some skills covered – within reason, per my example – overlapping competencies, that might actually increase the chance for character competence, or at least break even.

For example, Streetwise (in orange) might be its own skill.

The things in that list which are white / regular text are just using the AD&D non-weapon proficiencies as a design template / "new" way of seeing. They are not skills I'm proposing. EDIT: Another way to phrase it: 4e/5e looked at Climb, Jump, Swim in 3e and said "hey, you guys belong together." I'm doing a similar big picture look back at AD&D for similar trends for skill clusters that never made it into 5e.

And "propose" is too strong a word for where I'm at. More like mindfully exploring.

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

PC wanting to escape from restraints and me not being sure what skill to ask them to apply Sleight of Hand or Acrobatics (I let the player choose), a PC talking the helm of a seagoing vessel (I waved the need for a roll), a PC wanting to decipher some cryptography without having the Linguist feat (kinda just roleplayed this by providing some good hints), drinking contest (went with opposed CON saves), hitting the streets to gather information (had everyone roll on a rumor table), trying to discern whether to call for a Performance or Persuasion check for a PC engaging in some cunning oratory, and of course figuring out how to respond to players inevitably asking "what do I know about this monster?

I think most of it can be ruled somewhat easily if you go with the Skill with Different Ability from the PHB.
For example:

• Taking the helm of vessel: check Strength or Intelligence or Charisma (depending if they are actually piloting the ship, mostly navigating and charting or giving command) then add proficiency of trained with Sea Vehicles.
• Decipher cryptography: Int check + Forgery kit proficiency (advantage if the players is trained in either Investigation or Insight)
• Gathering information: Charisma (Investigation)

or sometime there's just need for the players to be more explicit in their approach:

• Oratory: is the player trying to persuade someone to take his side in an argument or putting on a show to entertain? What's is their goal and approach?
• Same thing with the escaping of restraints: what is the players actually doing? Twisting and bending themselves to loosen the ropes (acrobatics) or are they trying to pick the locks or untie the knots?

But yeah, having ''foci'' as sub-skill (maybe affected by Int mod?) is a elegant way of doing this, but it does bring more work.

 

[Quickleaf]

I think most of it can be ruled somewhat easily if you go with the Skill with Different Ability from the PHB.

Yeah, all of it can be ruled pretty easily, and even if our answers differed, it wasn't hard to do the ruling.

Ease-of-ruling wasn't the question I was trying to discuss or criticize. Gah. This is really hard to articulate...

Maybe it's difficult because I'm observing multiple things going on with 5e's skill system that, individually, are easy to work with, but collectively lead to a sense of dissatisfaction for me, in that I'm always working really hard to get the skill / ability system to sing. By "sing" I mean inspire us in our creation of interesting layered narratives.

I'm not saying something drastic like I want to throw out the 5e skill system, because the AD&D non-weapon proficiency system is a nightmare of complex, overlapping, and contradictory info. I like the overall elegance of 5e's system.

Let me think on it some more, and see if I can articulate myself better.

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

I'm not saying something drastic like I want to throw out the 5e skill system

In fact, it may be a good option: if you can get your hands on an explanation of the ''skill'' system of Shadow of the Demon Lord, I think you may like it.

In short, you gain ''profession/background'' proficiencies at first level and each 3-4 levels. Things like Hunter, or Priest, or Fisherman etc

In D&D that would mean that the player does not have ''skills'' but can add their proficiency bonus to ability checks for everything pertinent or related to their background/race/class.

 

[Ovinomancer]

The 5e skill system tells you as GM to ask for ability checks. You can specify a proficiency, if it's obvious, or let players propose them:

Sometimes, the DM might ask for an ability check using a specific skill—for example, “Make a Wisdom (Perception) check.” At other times, a player might ask the DM if proficiency in a particular skill applies to a check. In either case, proficiency in a skill means an individual can add his or her proficiency bonus to ability checks that involve that skill. Without proficiency in the skill, the individual makes a normal ability check.

D&D Basic Rules, P61

Appraise something should just be calling for an ability check, and if they players can give a good reason why a proficiency applies, go with it.

 

[Quickleaf]

The 5e skill system tells you as GM to ask for ability checks. You can specify a proficiency, if it's obvious, or let players propose them:

Appraise something should just be calling for an ability check, and if they players can give a good reason why a proficiency applies, go with it.

Yeah, I appreciate that's the rules-as-written.

But with my style and my players, the vast majority of the time I call for skill checks by name. "Make a Stealth check" or "Make a Dex (Thieves' Tools) check." While the RAW is totally legitimate, it's just not our style, I think that back and forth of "make a Strength check" ..."can I apply my masonry tools proficiency?" ..."yeah, sure, that makes sense"...just feels unnatural and like an uninteresting time-sink to us. Those couple minutes we save by not engaging with that particular back and forth over the course of a session is time we'd rather invest in other parts of the game.

It's just a play style thing.

 

[Quickleaf]

In fact, it may be a good option: if you can get your hands on an explanation of the ''skill'' system of Shadow of the Demon Lord, I think you may like it.

In short, you gain ''profession/background'' proficiencies at first level and each 3-4 levels. Things like Hunter, or Priest, or Fisherman etc

In D&D that would mean that the player does not have ''skills'' but can add their proficiency bonus to ability checks for everything pertinent or related to their background/race/class.

Thanks for pointing it out. I think I'm ready to try experimenting with some different systems and Shadow of the Demon Lord looks interesting. Sounds like that approach has a lot in common with the DMG's skill variant: background proficiency, just providing flavorful lists of professions. I did look over Robert J Schwalb's blog and I like the implied flavor of the chosen professions, though it's maybe a bit too loose for our tastes.

Thought a bit more, and I've pinned down the things I'm wanting from 5e's skill system that I haven't been getting in my games...

Something more flavorful & character-defining... where the selection of skills tells more of a story about the character (and lets the player embody that character more) than the current 5e skill system does, and perhaps evokes the imagination more about the world. For example, "I have proficiency in water vehicles" is milk toast compared to "I know the Riverways of this land" or "Seamanship is in my blood." I think fusing Sage Knowledge into many skills (i.e. making more explicit what you know, regardless of calling for an Intelligence (Survival) check or an Intelligence (Medicine) check) might be one of the guiding principles to accomplish this.

A bit more guidance and clarity when it comes to skills & tools (I don't see any reason not to merge these). There's sort of this false unified approach in 5e where it seems like all skills are resolved in the same way, but then you have these little oddities like jump distance being a formula based on Strength and no substantive guidance for how Athletics checks influence jumping. Another example is that you have two ways defined by the rules to figure out what a magic item does – casting identify or experimenting with it during a rest, nothing about making a check, yet XGtE has weird sections like for Cobbler's Tools "Arcana, History. Your knowledge of shoes aids you in identifying the magical properties of enchanted boots or the history of such items." It's like... yeah... I get that they want me to track another subsystem for gaining advantage on a check for having a certain tool proficiency (honestly, I'd rather not - too much like 3e's fiddly synergy rules for skills)... but... what does that mean in context to the actual rules not asking for a check to discern a magic item's properties? While AD&D was way more guilty of weird little sub-systems to trip you up, at least many of the skills had some clarity about their scope and how to use them.

I'm also looking for skills that map to how, at least with my DM style and players I run for, skills seem to be used. A good example is that, whether I'm making a History check in 5e or Spout Lore in DungeonWorld, it boils down to me as DM telling the player what their PC knows, then the player deciding how their PC explains that – with a really engaged player that play loop can be fun, but usually my experience as DM is that it falls kind of flat. I need to be really on top of my game to quickly deliver poignant punchy lore, otherwise player attention quickly lapses, and then there's the awkward "uh, ok, I tell the rest of my party that." I suspect this is because there's a fundamental difference in play experience between Active skills, Lore skills, and Craft skills (with their downtime & tables sub-systems), and so forth, at least with the groups I run for. I'm still figuring out how many types of approaches to running skills there are.

 

[overgeeked]

I've noticed similar gaps. What I've started doing is going the other way and dumping discrete skills entirely. Instead, using a mishmash house ruled version of some of the optional rules for skills in the DMG. Basically, you get to add your proficiency bonus to anything that someone of your race, background, and class would reasonably be proficient in or with. And if it's something that 2/3 of those point to, you get advantage. So a criminal rogue would get prof bonus and advantage to stealth or breaking free of bonds.

But that's a style choice. I've always found that increasing rules and complexity just compounds most problems, where as pushing for fewer, more broadly applicable rules decreases complexity and removes problems.