Reincarnate: Good spell or best spell?

[Maxperson]

To me it can be intrusive on what the player wanted to play. Is it an interesting role-play opportunity? Sure. That works for some players who don't mind a complete turn around in their character concept. For others it's a turn off that breaks their interest in playing that PC.

This. While becoming a half-elf really isn't that bad, I almost without fail, ended up with goblin, kobold or another race that would be killed on sight in most of civilization. I hated the spell.

 

[outsider]

Basically, if you're going to permanently modify my character in a major way like that without my input, expect me to do one of 3 things.
1: leave the character dead
2: roll a new character
3: leave the group

I don't want to play a character my dm feels is amusing. I want to play a character -I- feel is fun. I had a DM once that thought I should be "thankful" when he said "oh, you can't find anybody that can raise dead, but you find a druid who can reincarnate". As if he was doing me some sort of favor making my character something completely different than what I'd been playing for the last few months. It caused alot of tension, though he allowed me a wish within a few sessions to get my original form back.

My character is the only thing I have 100% power over in the campaign. The DM has power over everything else. He shouldn't be trying to take that away from me.

 

[Swarmkeeper]

Basically, if you're going to permanently modify my character in a major way like that without my input, expect me to do one of 3 things.
1: leave the character dead
2: roll a new character
3: leave the group

I don't want to play a character my dm feels is amusing. I want to play a character -I- feel is fun. I had a DM once that thought I should be "thankful" when he said "oh, you can't find anybody that can raise dead, but you find a druid who can reincarnate". As if he was doing me some sort of favor making my character something completely different than what I'd been playing for the last few months. It caused alot of tension, though he allowed me a wish within a few sessions to get my original form back.

My character is the only thing I have 100% power over in the campaign. The DM has power over everything else. He shouldn't be trying to take that away from me.

The DM doesn’t owe the players anything - except to be prepared for the session and adjudicate the game fairly. If a character dies, it’s because that is a possibility in D&D (and let’s assume the DM is not being a compete jackanapes). There is nothing in the rules that says a DM needs to provide a way for a PC to come back from death. If the only way to come back from death offered by the DM is an NPC with a Reincarnate spell, maybe the party should start thinking about having the cleric prepare Revivify more often. Sorry to sound so harsh, and maybe you didn’t mean it to sound this way, but the complaint above really reeks of player entitlement - a behavior which can dampen the mood for the whole table. Play well, have fun, and if your character should meet an untimely demise, don’t be a poor sport.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

While not a huge fan that the current reincarnate doesn't have badgers or non-humanoids on the list, it does open a rather interesting plot hook. Reincarnate makes you a whole new body. Presumably your old body stays intact, since it doesn't specify what happens. This opens the door for insane suicide squad scenarios, where characters voluntarily die, preserve their original body with Gentle Repose, get reincarnated, and go on a one way mission. The original body serves as an extraction point, since they can then be Revivfied/Raised back into it upon death.

 

[Hussar]

To be fair though, [MENTION=54690]outsider[/MENTION] makes a point. Players can get very, very shirty when the DM starts overriding character elements. I've heard it described as the "golden box" around a PC. The DM controls pretty much everything in the game world but, the only thing the player actually has any control over is that one character. Which can make some players very, very jealous in their protection of that character.

There's a very good reason that a lot of the "I take your character away from you" stuff has been left at the road side over the years of D&D's evolution. Level draining, permanent effects, and the massive reduction in the power of Charms and the like have really changed what direct influence a DM can have over the PC's.

Whether that's a good or a bad thing I leave to the reader. Personally, I think it's a good thing. It's far, far too easy for DM's to forget that the players only can control that one thing and run roughshod over the players, making for some pretty hard feelings around the table.

 

[outsider]

If a character dies, it’s because that is a possibility in D&D

Which is why I said this:

Basically, if you're going to permanently modify my character in a major way like that without my input, expect me to do one of 3 things.
1: leave the character dead

 

[Swarmkeeper]

To be fair though, [MENTION=54690]outsider[/MENTION] makes a point. Players can get very, very shirty when the DM starts overriding character elements. I've heard it described as the "golden box" around a PC. The DM controls pretty much everything in the game world but, the only thing the player actually has any control over is that one character. Which can make some players very, very jealous in their protection of that character.

There's a very good reason that a lot of the "I take your character away from you" stuff has been left at the road side over the years of D&D's evolution. Level draining, permanent effects, and the massive reduction in the power of Charms and the like have really changed what direct influence a DM can have over the PC's.

Whether that's a good or a bad thing I leave to the reader. Personally, I think it's a good thing. It's far, far too easy for DM's to forget that the players only can control that one thing and run roughshod over the players, making for some pretty hard feelings around the table.

Most definitely a good thing. But what you and [MENTION=54690]outsider[/MENTION] are really discussing is bad DMing. Of course a good DM should strive to maintain player agency. Invading the “golden box” intentionally or through negligence will soon leave a DM with an empty table.

However, a DM who provides a setting with an NPC with the reincarnation spell as the only non-party means for recovering from PC death cannot be labeled as a “bad DM” for that decision alone. It would be absurd to then say the DM is “forcing” the PC to be reincarnated. It is ultimately the party’s responsibility to cover their proverbial behinds in such a campaign world.

 

[outsider]

However, a DM who provides a setting with an NPC with the reincarnation spell as the only non-party means for recovering from PC death cannot be labeled as a “bad DM” for that decision alone.

I wouldn't call him a bad DM overall, he just occasionally had this particular desire to "mess with" pcs in a permanent way. In a RIFTS campaign he ran, another player was knocked unconcious and woke up with a bionic hand. The character in question was a mage, and in that game bionics interfere heavily with magic, meaning the character no longer functioned in the same way.

This DM didn't advertise himself as a "killer dm", and he usually wasn't. He encouraged the players to build characters focused on RP rather than mechanics. Then he'd basically randomly spring something like this once in a blue moon. TBH, it's why I'm such a powergamer now. I do my best to avoid leaving my fate up to the whims of the DM and randomness of the die rolls.

It's my opinion that "DM empowerment" actually leads to stuff like this. I'm leery of DMs that rail against "player entitlement" and games that go out of their way to support the "DM is god" playstyle. A benevolent dictator is still a dictator. I basically won't play 5e outside of Adventurer's League because of this.

 

[Sunseeker]

To me it can be intrusive on what the player wanted to play. Is it an interesting role-play opportunity? Sure. That works for some players who don't mind a complete turn around in their character concept. For others it's a turn off that breaks their interest in playing that PC.

Yeah, pretty much this.

If there were some sort of guide to it, more along the lines of Reincarnation in IRL Eastern Mythologies where you moved up or down the spiritual ladder based on your deeds in life, I think that would make it more interesting.

Otherwise I generally just find the spell irritating, mostly throwing off character concepts to a point where you are either no longer interested in playing (always a bad result) or your character no longer performs in the manner its supposed to. It's made worse by the fact that the "Undo" button is a Wish or Miracle, basically negating the chance that any character at lower levels will ever see a way to change back.

The only game I've ever seen it get used in is one where the DM has his really convoluted system that basically allows you to come back as anything. So instead of gambling on going from an Elf to a Dwarf, now you've gambling on going from a Archon to a Xorn. There's a solid chance you'll get something that is a dramatic improvement over your current self, and an equally solid chance you'll end up a Flumph. Which IMO, makes Reincarnation immeasurably more interesting, as opposed to simply saying "Oh, sorry, that neat elf ranger you made? Well now you're a short fat hobbit." Sure, you might still end up a short, fat hobbit, but you might also end up a dragon. In that case, the risk feels a lot more warranted.

 

[5ekyu]

The DM doesn’t owe the players anything - except to be prepared for the session and adjudicate the game fairly. If a character dies, it’s because that is a possibility in D&D (and let’s assume the DM is not being a compete jackanapes). There is nothing in the rules that says a DM needs to provide a way for a PC to come back from death. If the only way to come back from death offered by the DM is an NPC with a Reincarnate spell, maybe the party should start thinking about having the cleric prepare Revivify more often. Sorry to sound so harsh, and maybe you didn’t mean it to sound this way, but the complaint above really reeks of player entitlement - a behavior which can dampen the mood for the whole table. Play well, have fun, and if your character should meet an untimely demise, don’t be a poor sport.

I see not one entitled thing in outsiders post. Nowhere did the post refer to being owed a raise dead or anything. Staying dead was his first reaction listed, wasnt it?

The only thing that was being ecpressed was not wanting the GM to feel free to remake the PC for the amusement of the GM and the ability to ssy no in game or to leave the game if unhappy.

If that qualifies as some entitlement these parts, color ne entitled as well.