Reincarnate = Immortality?

[Banshee16]

Oh so true. Still, if you've only got a few days left in the old meat-sack, the trade in option looks pretty nice.

I think it depends...reincarnate really rolls the dice. Your 80 year old druid might want to live forever......but there's no guarantee he'll come back as a studly 17 year old...he could end up as a young hottie that has to keep male NPCs away with a stick, or possibly as a sweaty, low-browed, smelly orc or half-orc, or in the 3.0 version of the spell, as a weasel or badger or something.

My experience with the spell in my games is that it usually caused chaos with characters' sense of identity, and even with their abilities at times.

Banshee

 

[Banshee16]

And does the druid really wants to reincanate forever instead of living a petitioner's afterlive in the realm of his deity?

That's a good point. I see this intended use of reincarnate as something that would have more appeal to wizards or sorcerers, who traditionally don't have the same level of divine commitment, rather than druids, who may be looking forward to laying down their burdens to the next generation.

I don't have my books with me, but I don't think that in 3rd Ed. wizards have access to the spell, though they did in 2nd. Ed.

Of course, in some settings like Midnight, I could see it being used heavily. There is no other way to bring back the dead, short of having the Healing path, or being a legate. And the forces of good are so much on the retreat that I'm sure they'd have Channellers bringing back important champions and such who have been killed, to allow them to fight another day. Old champions and such would be so important, that I'd figure a logical interpretation would be that they aren't *allowed* to stay dead.

Banshee

 

[Sejs]

And does the druid really wants to reincanate forever instead of living a petitioner's afterlive in the realm of his deity?

Well bear in mind the nature of the subject. Druids are, by way of their worship, very connected to nature and the natural world.

Reincarnation is being able to continue to participate in that world that they connect with. Going to an outer plane, deity or no, and eventually merging with it as a petitioner is basically quitting. Taking your ball and going home.

Abandoning that thing that you love because you're so very tired.


For a cleric or favored soul it's a bit different - for them going to the planes to become one with their deity is an ecstatic event. For druids it's the opposite. They'd be leaving the object of their worship and going away from it never to return.

My experience with the spell in my games is that it usually caused chaos with characters' sense of identity, and even with their abilities at times.

Oh absolutely, and frankly it should. If you're an old druid, getting on the reincarnation circuit, you'd have to come to terms with natural self-identity and learn to define yourself as who you are instead of who you were. That sort of thinking is pretty much the core of the concept. You get to continue living, cycle after cycle, not because you're old you in a different body, but because you're new you. If you're Studly McFarmhand, be Studly McFarmhand. If you're Elly-May Halfelf, be Elly-May Halfelf. If you're Skork the Goblin, be Skork the Goblin.

Learning to get over yourself and be who you've become is part of the price of admission.

This would be the ultimate form of the "trust" game. You have to *really* trust that your flunky will use the scroll to bring you back, and not turn around, and sell the scroll for a few months salary, bury your body, and take your stuff...

The way I see it, having someone assist you in this is tantamount to asking someone to be your second when you commit seppuku. It's something you'd only ask someone you really know and trust to perform. You need to rely on this person to care for you enough to save you in a very real, tangible way.

It's not a task you'd relegate to just anyone.

 

[Wolfwood2]

Incidentally, if you don't want to do something like that, consider this. Just how much does that druid trust his flunky? Did he get angry at him for trampling the garden last week? This would be the ultimate form of the "trust" game. You have to *really* trust that your flunky will use the scroll to bring you back, and not turn around, and sell the scroll for a few months salary, bury your body, and take your stuff....

That's why it's best used in a druidic circle of several powerful casters. How do you know your friend will Reincarnate you? So that when the time comes, you'll Reincarnate him. And for circles of three or more, the chance that everyone will want to "vote you off the island" at the same time becomes vanishingly small.

Sure it's placing your life in someone else's hands, but such is life.

That said, I too find it kind of silly that 3.5 is so obsessive on making sure that nobody lives past their natural lifespans. It certainly doesn't match the fiction of many game worlds, where all sorts of NPCs seem to find ways to hang on long past their natural date with the reaper.

 

[Stalker0]

Reincarnate is very different from raise dead. You dont' come back as you, you come back as a different you in a new body. Most of your personality is the same, but you are not the same exact character you were.

For druids, it is continuing the cycle of life. The old body dies, a new one is born. Only the soul remains.

 

[Stalker0]

That said, I too find it kind of silly that 3.5 is so obsessive on making sure that nobody lives past their natural lifespans. It certainly doesn't match the fiction of many game worlds, where all sorts of NPCs seem to find ways to hang on long past their natural date with the reaper.

From a player perspective its fine, old age is rarely a factor its not a big deal. From a world perspective its huge.

If high level characters all have ways to become immortal, your going to have a lot of immortal people in a standard dnd setting And as more and more high level people come in, the high level ranks are going to get a bit crowded.

 

[IcyCool]

Learning to get over yourself and be who you've become is part of the price of admission.

For a great example of this, see Jovol/Teppu from the Tales of Wyre story hour by Sepulchrave.

 

[Wolfwood2]

If high level characters all have ways to become immortal, your going to have a lot of immortal people in a standard dnd setting And as more and more high level people come in, the high level ranks are going to get a bit crowded.

I'd rather deal with that problem than not be able to bring in long-lived NPCs, or worse make their longevity an NPC-only thing.

EDIT: And besides, while it may not be worth a hill of beans in a typical game, I think immortality is a sort of cool retirement for a PC.

 

[pallandrome]

Just so you know, the way I house rule this spell is that when you get the spell cast on you, somewhere in the world there is some young person dying of natural causes, generally disease or some-such thing. When the spell hits, their spirit, having shuffled off this mortal coil, is replaced by the soul of our recently perished buddy. Hilarity ensues. The character wakes up, family all around, and everyone is so happy that Elly-Mae Halfelf (used to be Thud the Barbarian Orc) managed to pull through in time for the wedding! Meanwhile, half a continent away, the rest of the party is wondering why the spell didn't apparently work, and apparently Raise Dead isn't doing it's job either...

You want reincarnation? I'll give you reincarnation, Buddha style!

 

[moritheil]

If natural balance were something druids were solely concerned with, they wouldn't have the overwhelming majority of their spells.

They wouldn't get cure spells - if you get injured, you're supposed to heal naturally or be something else's prey. They wouldn't get reincarnate - if you die, by god you're supposed to stay dead, that's how nature works. They wouldn't get most of their attack spells - fire doesn't get tossed around in handfulls or drop down in roaring pillars from the sky. They frankly wouldn't get to do much magic, because magic is inherrently not natural; it's supernatural.

The kind of reincarnation immortality that's presented isn't an 'in your face, natural order' kind of immortality that undeath offers.

It's the appropriately successive cyclic immortality of a seasonal plant. It lives its time, it dies, and in doing so sows the seeds for its subsequent generation to spring forth from.

An acceptable argument for certain worlds. I still dislike the "I have this power, thus it is okay for me to use it however I use it" line of thought - particularly for divine casters, who are answerable to their patrons for the proper use of their power. I find your reasoning a little more palatable because it doesn't rely on fiat, though I question the concept that magic is inherently unnatural. In OUR world, the real world, it is thought of as such, but that's not to say that in a campaign world magic isn't part of the natural order of things.