Reinventing fantasy cliches

[Desdichado]

But I suspect your criticism of typical Americans may be right!

Neither Americans (nor anyone else) are, en masse, naive enough to believe that what is obviouisly a theme park attraction based on a fairy tale has a close resemblance to reality.

After all, we've had period movies from Hollywood for decades that show us more gritty and realistic castles all the time too.

 

[haakon1]

I get what you mean about some contrast on the good/evil scale, adds more depth. Nothing wrong with just plain old malicious and cruel critters. All for it. And Bugbears and Gnolls do have that terrible, bestial appearance. The Bugbears in my Borderlands are definitely cruel and vicious, but some have enough pragmatism to realise that human traders can provide benefits above and beyond filling the pot.

The "in general" v. "but these ones are different" stuff can be interesting too. In general, my bugbears are monstrous people eaters. But the ones in the Caves of Chaos have been decimated to such an extent that they've thrown in their lot with the Goblin King (oh, the shame) and follow his rules about not killing the humans anymore. Of course, someday the old Goblin King will die . . .

I am pretty familiar with Greyhawk. Long been a fave of mine!! I vaguely recall someone (either here on Enworld or on Canonfire) talking about using the border area between Ket and Bissel as a great area for adventure. The whole clash of cultures thing that takes place there. Was that you per chance?

Quite likely, but I hope others have the same idea! I don't do Canonfire, but did AOL Greyhawk in days of yore (1996-1999).

About giving background, it's easier in play-by-email, which is one of my two campaigns. But I usually do it in the "Basil Exposition" style, of having a conversation with a friendly about it, or having a PC research it. And I've used bard songs too.

And when something I mentioned before comes up, I remind my players that heard about it before, so they can say "oh yeah". On the other side of the screen, I remember it's hard to follow the details months later!

 

[Jürgen Hubert]

Neither Americans (nor anyone else) are, en masse, naive enough to believe that what is obviouisly a theme park attraction based on a fairy tale has a close resemblance to reality.

After all, we've had period movies from Hollywood for decades that show us more gritty and realistic castles all the time too.

Well, likely many people do realize that the Disney castle is not representative of real castles - although quite likely less than you suspect (which has less to do with the average intelligence of Americans, but the average intelligence of people in general). And even if they do realize it, how many of them know what a real castle looks like? In the RPG community we take such knowledge for granted, but how common is such knowledge of history, and especially European history, in the general American population?

Even if they don't think of the Disney castle, the best image that will pop to their minds are likely Minas Tirith and Minas Morgul from the Lord of the Rings movie. And knowing anything better is not a fault of their character, but simply a matter of having different interests than the average gamer...

(If the American board members were willing to try out the following experiment, I'd be curious about the results: Approach some family members who are not gamers, not history buffs, and who haven't been to Europe, and ask them about the first image that pops to their mind when asked about castles. Don't let them time to look it up in Wikipedia - ask them for an immediate response.)

 

[Set]

(If the American board members were willing to try out the following experiment, I'd be curious about the results: Approach some family members who are not gamers, not history buffs, and who haven't been to Europe, and ask them about the first image that pops to their mind when asked about castles. Don't let them time to look it up in Wikipedia - ask them for an immediate response.)

There's a difference between my first image of a castle (which is indeed Neuschwanstein) and my understanding of what real castles looked like. It's kind of a false posit.

Nor do I see any reason to single out Americans. People who take what they see on the TV too seriously are not exclusive to any country, and it's just as eye-rollingly embarassing when my French relatives make assumptions about my childhood in the 'wild west.' I don't think any less of them for not knowing irrelevant details of American history, and I hope they don't think less of me for not knowing the Sun King from Sun City.

 

[Desdichado]

Well, likely many people do realize that the Disney castle is not representative of real castles - although quite likely less than you suspect (which has less to do with the average intelligence of Americans, but the average intelligence of people in general). And even if they do realize it, how many of them know what a real castle looks like? In the RPG community we take such knowledge for granted, but how common is such knowledge of history, and especially European history, in the general American population?

What; Americans didn't watch Robin Hood: Prince of Thieves, First Knight or Excalibur? What about earlier movies like Knights of the Round Table, Ivanhoe or The Adventures of Robin Hood?

I think you vastly underestimate the degree to which castles permeate our cultural fabric. Have Americans actually been to a real castle and walked around on the rampart, and all that jazz? No, obviously not nearly as many, but as a whole, we're not terribly ignorant about them either. I remember seeing plenty of diagrams of castle floorplans and whatnot in my junior high social studies textbooks, that discussed them, their architectural peculiarities and their social importance, and I went through a pretty bog-standard curriculum.

 

[billd91]

Nor do I see any reason to single out Americans. People who take what they see on the TV too seriously are not exclusive to any country, and it's just as eye-rollingly embarassing when my French relatives make assumptions about my childhood in the 'wild west.' I don't think any less of them for not knowing irrelevant details of American history, and I hope they don't think less of me for not knowing the Sun King from Sun City.

I don't think it's a question of taking TV too seriously. It's a question of exposure in general. TV provides a lot of people with the broadest exposure they're going to get. If the castle they see most on TV is Neuschwanstein or based on it, it's going to color their perceptions and expectations. If they see a more realistic castle, they consider it a disappointment or a poor example of a castle.

Keep in mind also that even movies take shots of castles that are generally impressive or dressed up, better lit, and so on because that's what sells and that's what, in the case of lighting in particular, the medium requires. So even in movies with real, historically functional castles, we get an idealized version.

 

[Heckler]

Well, likely many people do realize that the Disney castle is not representative of real castles - although quite likely less than you suspect (which has less to do with the average intelligence of Americans, but the average intelligence of people in general). And even if they do realize it, how many of them know what a real castle looks like? In the RPG community we take such knowledge for granted, but how common is such knowledge of history, and especially European history, in the general American population?

Even if they don't think of the Disney castle, the best image that will pop to their minds are likely Minas Tirith and Minas Morgul from the Lord of the Rings movie. And knowing anything better is not a fault of their character, but simply a matter of having different interests than the average gamer...

I think this illustrates more your ideas of Americans than Americans ideas of castles.

Here's a link to a listing of castles in the US (scroll past the webmaster's rant on eminent domain). I looked at some at random, and while some are "fake" (Ren faire facades or water towers) there were many that are real (or replicas). Castles have heavily influenced our architecture and design, shown in many homes and businesses.

Disney doesn't even come to mind. Honestly, I'm not sure I could give you an accurate description of Disneyland's castle.

http://www.dupontcastle.com/castles/index.htm#ky

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I have to side with Jürgen on the castle thing- most fellow Americans without some gaming/military/travel background that I've taken on trips to castles or shown shows or books on the subject were utterly clueless as to the form & function of castles. The Disney Palace/Neuschwanstein is the first one they name, the one they emulate in their sketches, etc.

BTW- I've been to Neuschwanstein and its sister castle, Hoenschwangau, as well as many of Ludwig's palaces & castles. Few of them even remotely resemble the others in Europe built to withstand siege engines...because they weren't.

 

[roguerouge]

I think what's appealing about these Euro-centric settings is that they make the familiar exotic, estranging us from the familiar through fey, folklore, and myth.

 

[haakon1]

I think what's appealing about these Euro-centric settings is that they make the familiar exotic, estranging us from the familiar through fey, folklore, and myth.

I also think there's something powerful about using "real" myths -- trolls under bridges, vampires, centaurs, and so forth -- as opposed to WOTC's latest invention.