JRRNeiklot
First Post
mythusmage said:
I was on your side, til this. Baseball is NOT just a game. Nor is it a hobby. It is quite possibly why the universe itself was created.
Reinventing Roleplaying Games
- Thread starter mythusmage
- Start date
I was on your side, til this. Baseball is NOT just a game. Nor is it a hobby. It is quite possibly why the universe itself was created.
barsoomcore
Unattainable Ideal
Okay, I think we can all at least agree that this is the most sensible post in the entire thread.JRRNeiklot said:
the Jester
Legend
Mythusmage, I've been off camping the last few days but I want to address what I think is really the central issue of your issue with the term roleplaying 'game'.
It seems to me that, in effect, you are dissatisfied with the size of the 'gamer pool.' (Perhaps it's not the size but rather the type of gamers in your area; I don't know what sort of folk you've got around you, but I can identify with this issue too.)
I submit to you that rather than trying to re-envision or re-brand rpgs, you simply have to be more inviting.
Let me give you a list of folks that my group and I have recruited into the hobby in the last four years. Not all of these people play in regular campaigns- heck, I don't know that some of them have ever played other than a few games with my group- but they have joined the ranks of the gamers.
Brian
Jill
Christina
Jenna
Ilya
Yasa
Glen
Jill (another one)
Mona
Josh
There are prolly one or two more gamers that have joined us for a game or two that I didn't mention- Lydia, Maire, etc, etc- but those folk are the ones I can count as at least mildly dedicated gamers for at least a short time.
That's 2.5 per year, and interestingly, more than half female.
So I can't speak for everyone; but I know my game is inviting.
You'll also note that I refer to people joining the hobby, even as I speak of role-playing games. That's because gaming as a whole is a hobby, but we don't get together on Sunday so I can run my hobby; it's so I can run my game. And people join the hobby even if they don't join 'the game'- in this context, my game. Maybe they join Bob's game over there, or start a different game entirely (Toon, anyone?)- but it's the same hobby.
Hobby vs. Game = nuances.
Trying to use one vs. the other = semantics.
mythusmage said:
It seems to me that, in effect, you are dissatisfied with the size of the 'gamer pool.' (Perhaps it's not the size but rather the type of gamers in your area; I don't know what sort of folk you've got around you, but I can identify with this issue too.)
I submit to you that rather than trying to re-envision or re-brand rpgs, you simply have to be more inviting.
Let me give you a list of folks that my group and I have recruited into the hobby in the last four years. Not all of these people play in regular campaigns- heck, I don't know that some of them have ever played other than a few games with my group- but they have joined the ranks of the gamers.
Brian
Jill
Christina
Jenna
Ilya
Yasa
Glen
Jill (another one)
Mona
Josh
There are prolly one or two more gamers that have joined us for a game or two that I didn't mention- Lydia, Maire, etc, etc- but those folk are the ones I can count as at least mildly dedicated gamers for at least a short time.
That's 2.5 per year, and interestingly, more than half female.
So I can't speak for everyone; but I know my game is inviting.
You'll also note that I refer to people joining the hobby, even as I speak of role-playing games. That's because gaming as a whole is a hobby, but we don't get together on Sunday so I can run my hobby; it's so I can run my game. And people join the hobby even if they don't join 'the game'- in this context, my game. Maybe they join Bob's game over there, or start a different game entirely (Toon, anyone?)- but it's the same hobby.
Hobby vs. Game = nuances.
Trying to use one vs. the other = semantics.
the Jester
Legend
mythusmage said:
I know a lot of games that are cooperative. I just learned a new one called 'chain reaction' while I was camping with friends.
Bran Blackbyrd
Explorer
A summary.
For anyone coming to this thread late, that doesn't want to read every post, I have created a summary. I think I've done a good job hitting the high points and skipping over the filler, without missing the general thrust of the discussion:
"Blah, blah, blah, blah."
"Blah, blah , blah, BLAH!"
"Yadda yadda, fnord."
"Yak, blah, yak, Skuuuuurge!".
"Blah, Tom Hanks, blah."
"Blah!"
EDIT: Blah...
For anyone coming to this thread late, that doesn't want to read every post, I have created a summary. I think I've done a good job hitting the high points and skipping over the filler, without missing the general thrust of the discussion:
"Blah, blah, blah, blah."
"Blah, blah , blah, BLAH!"
"Yadda yadda, fnord."
"Yak, blah, yak, Skuuuuurge!".
"Blah, Tom Hanks, blah."
"Blah!"
EDIT: Blah...
Last edited:
The Metal Pope
First Post
Missing the Point
Okay, I have read MOST of the posts in this thread but it doesn't seem anything really constructive is happening, even though most participants have raised very interesting points...
hong said:
Okay, I have read MOST of the posts in this thread but it doesn't seem anything really constructive is happening, even though most participants have raised very interesting points...
the Jester
Legend
The Metal Pope said:
Hey, Metal Pope, welcome to the boards!
The Metal Pope
First Post
Psychology
As a therapist, I often see the following happening: person A says something, than person B, who has known person A since a long time, says: 'no, that's not what you're real motivation, you're real motivation is...' After this, person A tries to convince person B (s)he is honest about his or her motivations, but person B doesn't believe person A because (s)he 'knows him/her so well'. Well guess what? In most cases, person B is WRONG and (s)he should just listen to what his or her friend is saying.
A similar thing is happening here: MythusMage, there seems to be a general consensus that the word 'hobby' has some negative connotations, just as the word 'game' has. This said, I submit to you that no one word will invoke the same associations in everyone. The truth is, there are NO UNIVERSAL associations. There IS a larger percentage of chance that a given word will invoke specific associations on a whole, but there's NEVER a 100% chance that EVERYONE will associate with the same things.
This said, it DOES seem most people here don't find the word 'hobby' 'clicks' with them better than the word 'game' does. Chances are, it won't 'click' better with the general populace, either. I know this is hard to accept as it apparently infringes on YOUR world view, but the fact is that world views differ and apparently the prevalent one regarding this concept is: it won't work. To be sure, one needs to do marketing research and even then there will be a large margin of error.
I would also like to note many of the name changes you propose have already been used. (For example, in the case of the DM, 'Keeper of Secrets' in Call of Cthulhu, 'Storyteller' in White Wolf Games, etc.) Also, the emphasis you want to lay on RPG's is one many gamers already use. Most mature players like to 'ROLE-play, not ROLL-play', and most of the points you've raised are automatically implied when you try to act out a character 'in-character'.
Many many many RPG's include great roleplaying tips, which form the basis of what you call 'a guidebook'. 'Amber', for example, dit this very well. I also don't think ROLE-playing and rules are mutually exclusive: I personally like interesting, realistic rules, or interesting gaming systems, such as the ones found in The Dying Earth RPG, Hero System, Silhouette, Rolemaster and more. But my no means does any set of rules exclude acting out what is happening. In fact, I'm a published writer myself and I review lots of stuff in our own Dutch-language sf/fantasy/horror magazine at www.fantastiek.com.
Although I don't like hack 'n' slash, there's a market for it and you'll lose many potential buyers if you decree THIS GAME SHOULD ONLY BE USED AS... On top of that, you are missing a very important point. Namely, NO GUIDE, NO SYSTEM, can change the people playing it. Some people will want to emphasize aspect A, others will want to emphasize aspect B. The same thing goes for this hobby (and it IS a hobby, as well as a game, I think) being seen as primarily played by nerds. Well, that's because many of us DO act nerd-like around others. Even I am sometimes put off by my players constantly talking about how well de did during the latest RPG-session, or about their characters' statistics, etc. And still, most of them really ACT OUT their parts while playing! You will NEVER be able to change this, as this would mean you would have to become God and change human nature itself.
Of course, many of us AREN'T 'nerdish', but the general perception of the people at large will have to be changed by OUR OWN INDIVIDUAL ACTIONS and not by changing the name 'role-playing game' itself. I think most of us do try to promote our hobby, we bring in new people, they bring in others, etc. The only thing we can try is present this hobby as something which we don't talk about constantly... if people think we have NO LIVES because we keep yapping about our hobby, it's going to become difficult to draw them in.
Apart from that, RPG's CAN be marketed more efficiently. The problem is: it will take better marketing strategies AND more money for that... And the pool of potential players isn't THAT large, although I don't think we know how large it IS.
Shortly put: it's in our own hands, and RPG's will always be moulded according to individual tastes.
As a therapist, I often see the following happening: person A says something, than person B, who has known person A since a long time, says: 'no, that's not what you're real motivation, you're real motivation is...' After this, person A tries to convince person B (s)he is honest about his or her motivations, but person B doesn't believe person A because (s)he 'knows him/her so well'. Well guess what? In most cases, person B is WRONG and (s)he should just listen to what his or her friend is saying.
A similar thing is happening here: MythusMage, there seems to be a general consensus that the word 'hobby' has some negative connotations, just as the word 'game' has. This said, I submit to you that no one word will invoke the same associations in everyone. The truth is, there are NO UNIVERSAL associations. There IS a larger percentage of chance that a given word will invoke specific associations on a whole, but there's NEVER a 100% chance that EVERYONE will associate with the same things.
This said, it DOES seem most people here don't find the word 'hobby' 'clicks' with them better than the word 'game' does. Chances are, it won't 'click' better with the general populace, either. I know this is hard to accept as it apparently infringes on YOUR world view, but the fact is that world views differ and apparently the prevalent one regarding this concept is: it won't work. To be sure, one needs to do marketing research and even then there will be a large margin of error.
I would also like to note many of the name changes you propose have already been used. (For example, in the case of the DM, 'Keeper of Secrets' in Call of Cthulhu, 'Storyteller' in White Wolf Games, etc.) Also, the emphasis you want to lay on RPG's is one many gamers already use. Most mature players like to 'ROLE-play, not ROLL-play', and most of the points you've raised are automatically implied when you try to act out a character 'in-character'.
Many many many RPG's include great roleplaying tips, which form the basis of what you call 'a guidebook'. 'Amber', for example, dit this very well. I also don't think ROLE-playing and rules are mutually exclusive: I personally like interesting, realistic rules, or interesting gaming systems, such as the ones found in The Dying Earth RPG, Hero System, Silhouette, Rolemaster and more. But my no means does any set of rules exclude acting out what is happening. In fact, I'm a published writer myself and I review lots of stuff in our own Dutch-language sf/fantasy/horror magazine at www.fantastiek.com.
Although I don't like hack 'n' slash, there's a market for it and you'll lose many potential buyers if you decree THIS GAME SHOULD ONLY BE USED AS... On top of that, you are missing a very important point. Namely, NO GUIDE, NO SYSTEM, can change the people playing it. Some people will want to emphasize aspect A, others will want to emphasize aspect B. The same thing goes for this hobby (and it IS a hobby, as well as a game, I think) being seen as primarily played by nerds. Well, that's because many of us DO act nerd-like around others. Even I am sometimes put off by my players constantly talking about how well de did during the latest RPG-session, or about their characters' statistics, etc. And still, most of them really ACT OUT their parts while playing! You will NEVER be able to change this, as this would mean you would have to become God and change human nature itself.
Of course, many of us AREN'T 'nerdish', but the general perception of the people at large will have to be changed by OUR OWN INDIVIDUAL ACTIONS and not by changing the name 'role-playing game' itself. I think most of us do try to promote our hobby, we bring in new people, they bring in others, etc. The only thing we can try is present this hobby as something which we don't talk about constantly... if people think we have NO LIVES because we keep yapping about our hobby, it's going to become difficult to draw them in.
Apart from that, RPG's CAN be marketed more efficiently. The problem is: it will take better marketing strategies AND more money for that... And the pool of potential players isn't THAT large, although I don't think we know how large it IS.
Shortly put: it's in our own hands, and RPG's will always be moulded according to individual tastes.
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