D&D 5E Rejecting the Premise in a Module

[Scott Christian]

@Scott Christian - the boxed bits represent adventures and the circled bits represent connections between adventures, am I reading that right?

Or, if not, what represents what there?

Yes. Think of the box texts representing the chapter headings, milestones or big areas. The oval texts are smaller adventures which often represent choices the characters took.
They are all written out the same way though: setting, NPC's, conflict, etc. It's just one is headed with 17 size font and the other with 14 size font. Think of the Player's Handbook - titles versus sub-titles that are underlined.
In the end, it is still railroading, but with choices that reflect different endings. If the players choose to not engage or just leave, then the adventurer goes away too, and we try a new area.

 

[Scott Christian]

Nice, in my case I only decided during the "current adventure" the next 3 options so ahdn't really fleashed it out, it was moe of a living document and several of the options/hooks they didn't follow up with may have reappeared at the next time they completed and adventure but then dropped off the options but it looks like yours has plenty of decision points.

Stormdale

I have run this twice. Well, I ran it once and a friend ran it for his group. All I had was a living document. It was still 10-20 thousand words, but that's it. After I saw the paths players taking and worked out some kinks, then I wrote it. It's around 50,000 words with 20,000 of pure fluff. I don't sell it, but I do like to have it in a nice format. It makes a good nostalgic Christmas gift for people I used to play with, but now, due to living in different states, are unable to play together.

 

[Scott Christian]

Nice, in my case I only decided during the "current adventure" the next 3 options so ahdn't really fleashed it out, it was moe of a living document and several of the options/hooks they didn't follow up with may have reappeared at the next time they completed and adventure but then dropped off the options but it looks like yours has plenty of decision points.

Stormdale

On a different note: How do you work in your hooks? Are they character arcs related to the story or are they more plot centric?
And I like the three options. That's a lot, and very solid. Are there times you only give them one (like if they are in the middle of something) or just give them a map and say any of these spots seem interesting? Have you ever seen your players get overwhelmed with three options, especially if they know choosing one might mean a different one never gets resolved?

 

[Eltab]

I hinted at this previously:
My Tiamat group played Murder in Baldurs Gate when we reached that town, but we were not having much success grappling with the premise. I happened to have some 3e sourcebooks at home and was soaking up FR lore. I thought up a way to "beat the module" - kill Bhall the God of Murder dead - that had nothing to do with the plot as written. BUT. If a 4th level Paladin can figure this out, why hasn't one of those 20th level NPCs taken care of it already? I offered the alternative to the DM and the group, but by that point most of the others wanted to finish in town and move on with the campaign.

In summary: I had rejected the premise of the module but did not drop it at that point, I came up with an alternative plot to play through instead.

 

[Stormdale]

n a different note: How do you work in your hooks? Are they character arcs related to the story or are they more plot centric?
And I like the three options. That's a lot, and very solid. Are there times you only give them one (like if they are in the middle of something) or just give them a map and say any of these spots seem interesting? Have you ever seen your players get overwhelmed with three options, especially if they know choosing one might mean a different one never gets resolved?

Good Question Christian, I’ll try to have a go at answering it.

Having the adventures be completed at various times can add versmilitude if you have a rival pc band that complete some of those other hooks.

My secret is though is don't have an overall plot- I kind of weave one in and out as we go- long term the GDQ series might beocme the "main plot" but something else might instead. however i've bene DMing in Greyhawk for over 30 years and so this series of adventure sis woven into the outcoems of previous stories/advenuring groups

I started with a reflection on my last couple of campaigns
In the past I’ve sprinkled quite a few hooks into the ongoing adventures and the party has had a bit of adventure paralysis at times not sure which hook to chase down next and as a coupleof the newere playters were more used ot being led along by an "adventure path" story wanted to help them to feel there was a sei structure but also allow their choices to matter (if that makes sense).

So this time decided to simply give 2-3 meaningful choices at the end of each adventure. I started with a newspaper (the Saltmarsh Sentinel) with some recent events in the world and a couple of potential adventure hooks in it as well as reports from the Amedio jungle of the exploits of the adventurer’ in the previous campaign (ToA).

I have no overall campaign goal, wanting the story to emerge from the party’s adventures and tie various bits in as we go- but have a couple of possible storylines (#1 was lets blend in the 2e Sahaugin series into a nautical themed game, #2- the current way we are going lets try to aim towards GDQ 1E series into the story if they party makes it to high enough level).



Let’s now look at the end of adventure 1. I made one of pcs uncle’s was the local harbourmaster. The harbourmaster had been left the mansion in SSoSM in a will after his brother, a reclusive alchemist (another uncle) had been declared dead as he hadn’t been seen in over a decade. the ncle wanted the mansion cleared of any unwanted guests so he could start repairs on it

Alas, the nephew was killed by a group of lizardmen who had arrived to unload weapons off the Sea Ghost but after the battle the party retreated from the mansion carrying the dead PC. As his uncle had influence in the town he managed to get the nephew raised on condition the party did a favour for the church... clearing out of old lighthouse of an undead menace (Light of lost souls from Dungeon #2).

The conversation at the end of the first adventure went something like this:

"Okay you’ve cleared out the mansion on behalf of Slagga’s uncle and driven off some lizardmen. You weren’t sure way they were there (they completely missed the clues indicating the arrival of a ship- no one looked out a window of the room where the lizardmen had gone to signal the ship- I had changed the usual dungeon section as a couple of players had done it before lol).

Alas, Slagga died and thanks to the intervention of his uncle, the local harbourmaster, the local priests have managed to raise Slagga from the dead but in return the church requires a service of the party so your options are:

• Follow up what the lizardmen were doing in the mansion which may possibly lead into the nearby Hool marshes (vague notion of using the dungeon portion of N1 cult of the Repile God if they went that way)
• Repay your debt to the church- there is an abandoned lighthouse up the coast, undead are thought to be using the lighthouse to lure ships into the shallows. The church of Procan want this threat ended and this will repay your debt to the church.
• Follow up on the strange codes you’ve found in the mansion and try to deal with the smuggling ring you’ve uncovered, it looks like it will be the next full moon before their ship returns to the area though.

At the end of each adventure we had anorher recap and new options to explore.

The current arc (Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth) came about as one of the pcs magical short sword got broken so they needed to find a reclusive high level wizard to repair it. the wizard was rumoured to live on an island in the middle of a lake in the Dreadwood, one end of the lake happened to have a hill giant stronghold (Graud haug or whatever it is called from SKT) and so in return for getting his favourite blade fixed the party agreed to travel into the mountains and retrieve a magical lanthorn from the fabled caverns of Tsojcanth- this entire arc then being driven by a random event in one adventure. it turned out that the "wizard" was a lich and so they are worried about the potential impact of giving this item which they suspect is powerful to a lich whose intentions they do not trust not sure as a dm how that will pan out but love the moral dilemmas its created...

There are also regional level events about to start of which will add another level of political intrigue to the game going forward- now the players ahve driven the story we've lots of hooks/threads emerging to create an epic game- just because the party failed to continue with our Sahuangin threat arc doesn't necessarily mean the theat has been removed and I am toying with this arc coming back to bite them soon with a large scale sahuagin attack on Saltmarsh, so ignoring the original plot may also have consequences down the track.

Stormdale

 

[Scott Christian]

I hinted at this previously:
My Tiamat group played Murder in Baldurs Gate when we reached that town, but we were not having much success grappling with the premise. I happened to have some 3e sourcebooks at home and was soaking up FR lore. I thought up a way to "beat the module" - kill Bhall the God of Murder dead - that had nothing to do with the plot as written. BUT. If a 4th level Paladin can figure this out, why hasn't one of those 20th level NPCs taken care of it already? I offered the alternative to the DM and the group, but by that point most of the others wanted to finish in town and move on with the campaign.

In summary: I had rejected the premise of the module but did not drop it at that point, I came up with an alternative plot to play through instead.

It is a clever thought. But in a world where Bhall is a god, even 20th level groups risk everything to "finish a quest and solve a murder." High level NPC's are people. They have their own motives and responsibilities. That's like saying there was a murder in Seattle, why isn't Bill Gates pouring money into solving this case that eludes police. I mean, he has the resources.
Maybe if you reach 20th level, the DM can run something similar, then you can play out your premise. Murder is just a 32 page adventure. Not an AP. Almost more of a city supplement than quest-line. To kill Bhall would require a well thought out and probably, long AP.

 

[Scott Christian]

In the past I’ve sprinkled quite a few hooks into the ongoing adventures and the party has had a bit of adventure paralysis at times not sure which hook to chase down next and as a coupleof the newere playters were more used ot being led along by an "adventure path" story wanted to help them to feel there was a sei structure but also allow their choices to matter (if that makes sense).

Makes perfect sense.

I have no overall campaign goal, wanting the story to emerge from the party’s adventures and tie various bits in as we go- but have a couple of possible storylines (#1 was lets blend in the 2e Sahaugin series into a nautical themed game, #2- the current way we are going lets try to aim towards GDQ 1E series into the story if they party makes it to high enough level).

A very fun way to play. And nautical themed: I once had an pirate ship that used a captured wind elemental. It was brutal to other ships when there was a doldrum. The players had a real tough time figuring out how to catch the pirates.

Alas, Slagga died and thanks to the intervention of his uncle, the local harbourmaster, the local priests have managed to raise Slagga from the dead but in return the church requires a service of the party so your options are:

Great way to tie it together. Good job.

it turned out that the "wizard" was a lich and so they are worried about the potential impact of giving this item which they suspect is powerful to a lich whose intentions they do not trust not sure as a dm how that will pan out but love the moral dilemmas its created...

It's a lich... it can turn out no other way than someone dying. No seriously, fun premise. Hill giants are so much fun to play around with, as are most undead.

There are also regional level events about to start of which will add another level of political intrigue to the game going forward- now the players ahve driven the story we've lots of hooks/threads emerging to create an epic game- just because the party failed to continue with our Sahuangin threat arc doesn't necessarily mean the theat has been removed and I am toying with this arc coming back to bite them soon with a large scale sahuagin attack on Saltmarsh, so ignoring the original plot may also have consequences down the track.

Yeah, this is the only thing I have seen that causes player consternation. Not all players. But some, I have seen, really do not like the fact that they can't truly feel like they completed something. Like 100% of it. I am not saying timelines outside of the character's bubble should not exist. But, when it starts to always loom or affect them because they didn't get to this or because they chose that - it seems to have a negative effect on most players I know. But all groups are different. Yours may love it. Not saying it's bad, just stating my observations.

 

[Scott Christian]

Good Question Christian, I’ll try to have a go at answering it.

Thanks for the answers. They are appreciated.

 

[Scott Christian]

• (vague notion of using the dungeon portion of N1 cult of the Repile God if they went that way)

One last thing - best module ever! So much fun to run.

 

[Stormdale]

Yeah, this is the only thing I have seen that causes player consternation. Not all players. But some, I have seen, really do not like the fact that they can't truly feel like they completed something. Like 100% of it. I am not saying timelines outside of the character's bubble should not exist. But, when it starts to always loom or affect them because they didn't get to this or because they chose that - it seems to have a negative effect on most players I know. But all groups are different. Yours may love it. Not saying it's bad, just stating my observations.

That is a good point. I prefer to see it as allowing players choice but accepting that there may be consequences or future events occur (or not) based on those choices. So they've decided to leave the Sahuagin track, when they left the sahuagin were building a forward base (U3- whch was where I thought we were headed) to raid nearby human lands- so what happens if the players don't intervene? I could say guys this is the adventure you MUST do it, but that's not my way. Instead I rolled with their wishes and we went in a differnt direction. I am toying with a couple of scenarios. Maybe when they return to town (assuming they survive the current adventure) then the sahuagin plans are more advanced and raids occuring on the docks, maybe even the town partly destroyed and so the threat willl need to be dealt with. Or maybe I'll sense hte party still aren't that keen on resuming the original nautical theme and there is no forward base and they ended the menace when they finished the Evil Tide module. Or maybe an NPC party dealt with the sahuagin threat and are the towns heroes and not the pcs (and no one cares to hear about the PCs exploits in the far off mountains).

I ran a game back in 2012-13 where one of the playres wanted to be the "Icequeen" and spent the whole campaign sowing seeds of the imminent arrival of the Icequeen, who would unite the humanoids of the northern lands (Blackmoor) and create a mini iceage on her appearance. Hey that's cool (player idea, not mine) so now those events have transpired, the pc is now an npc and the players in the last two campaings have dealt with refugees from the lands taken over by the Icequeen and her followers, talked about trying to sort out what was happening up north but as of yet not actually done anything about it (last campign was heading that way I thought but then ended up in the tropics and ToA instead). Having this semi finished campaign/theme running in the background over the past 5-6 years adds depth to the campaign world IMO but isn't something that must be tied up to finish the campaign, well at least not this one. Whenever the pcs hear rumours of the Icequeen and events happening in the far off north they players all make comments to the player who kicked it all off and he just kind of shrugs.

IMO adventures and campaigns end but the campign world continues to tick a long waiting for the next story to emerge and add to the tapestry we are collectively weaving...

Stormdale