Release Day Second Edition Amazon Sales Rank

PF2 sales rank numbers are killer and other RPG companies would be celebrating in the streets with those numbers.
The sales started very strong but in six weeks they have dropped quite precipitously. As much overhead as Paizo has this could be trouble down the line. The sales are great compared to many competitors but none of those competitors have the fixed costs of Paizo either. Probably bears watching if sales slide.
 

darjr

I crit!
Paizo has been pairing down for a while. For instance I think the administration of PFS is only a part of someone’s job now.

Also it looks like the pf2 core book sales have kinda stabilized. Which probably means they can find a groove and be good.

Finally the setting book sold out of stock, and sustained a sales rank in the 14000. So my guess is that they are on the bubble about how many books they needed.
 
I have no animosity. Some of the comments felt like cheerleading for the game to fail to me. That's all. If that was not the intention I apologize. This kind of stuff is pretty easy to misread.
Your comments came across as 'Well this is better than 5e/superior to 5e'; sounding as if you're disparaging 5e. I understand this was not intentional but it sounded like an attack on 5e in tone if not intention.

I actually wish good fortune on PF2E - having different options for games is good - but some comments from various people regarding why they like PF2E sound like they are disparaging 5e and it annoys me no end.

Try this for instance: instead of saying 'PF2E monsters are more fun than 5e monsters' which sounds somewhat adversarial say instead 'Well I enjoy PF2E monsters because they bring more varied abilities to the game'

Stating what you like about PF2E without denigrating 5e essentially. It's all in the expression - diplomacy is an art worth practicing.
 
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darjr

I crit!
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And it broke 2000 again.
I think that shows steady sales. It’s not at PF1 levels, before the advent of 5e, but it could climb.

I think that people are discovering that it’s OK or great.
I wonder if initial doom and gloom hurt sales and now that it’s fading things will settle in and or climb?

but what do I know?
 

Arilyn

Adventurer
but what do I know?
[/QUOTE]

As much or as little as anyone else!

Nobody has access to Paizo's financial records, or how they are doing as a company, Paizo has PF1 books still available, PF2, Starfinder, the Adventure card game, the subscription service and their own store which has a huge amount of products, from a wide variety of RPG companies, including WOTC.

Because they sell a lot of product directly, Amazon can only give us a rough idea of sales. Plus direct sales of their own stuff means a bigger profit for Paizo. PF2 isn't selling as well as PF did initially, but is this a huge problem? We can't know, so all this talk of the end of Paizo, unless they revert to 5e is just... words fail.
 

darjr

I crit!
I do know that I don't know the initial sales rank of the pf1 core. Camelcamelcamel didn't go back that far.

So it's entirely possible that it started just like PF2. I don't know.

I think Keepa has those numbers, and numbers going back into 4e and even the end of 3.5. But that's more money than I'm willing to spend to find out. At least at the moment. 15 pounds a month. ( what is that in dollars?)
 

Arilyn

Adventurer
I do know that I don't know the initial sales rank of the pf1 core. Camelcamelcamel didn't go back that far.

So it's entirely possible that it started just like PF2. I don't know.

I think Keepa has those numbers, and numbers going back into 4e and even the end of 3.5. But that's more money than I'm willing to spend to find out. At least at the moment. 15 pounds a month. ( what is that in dollars?)
We just can't know. Maybe Paizo is teetering or maybe flush, or somewhere in between. Speculation seems to fall on the lines of whether you like PF or not, which tells us nothing. 🤔
 

darjr

I crit!
I don't like PF2. I'm interested in the play that campbell posted, but I don't intend to ever play or run it. I am trying to be objective. And I DO think that the amazon sales rank is a pretty good proxy.

We've compared them to the ICV2 rankings and they roughly matched, though that wasn't very rigorous.
Someone went and took a look at how many "subscribers" there were at Paizo's site, each user had a badge that said so. And those numbers, even if everyone of them bought the core via that subscription, were dwarfed by Amazon projected sales (yes a guess, but I think an OK one).

Also the comparison to the PHB sorta works out because there are many other sources to the PHB as well as the paizo core. Though I agree that Paizo makes more money on their direct sales, especially with PDF, twice as much per hardback, my guess, and most of it per PDF. Oh and we have a comparison to PF1 sales via sales rank, at least for a couple years and right at the release of 5e and a little after.

Amazon is really the only numbers we have for these two. At least in any steady supply.

I must admit though, I wan't Paizo to succeed. I wan't there to be more than one largish RPG company in the market. More than two or three would be even better.
 

MockingBird

Explorer
Another thing to consider somewhat. A new player interested in PF2e will more than likely visit Amazon to purchase the core book than the Paizo site itself. Everyone knows Amazon, you can find nearly anything on there. The Paizo site is daunting if you've never visited it before too. Saying all that to say dont disregard the Amazon sales so easily. Hardcore fans will no doubt buy directly from Paizo. The friend you introduced the game to will go to Amazon. I think Amazon is a good market for newer players IMO.
 

Parmandur

Legend
Another thing to consider somewhat. A new player interested in PF2e will more than likely visit Amazon to purchase the core book than the Paizo site itself. Everyone knows Amazon, you can find nearly anything on there. The Paizo site is daunting if you've never visited it before too. Saying all that to say dont disregard the Amazon sales so easily. Hardcore fans will no doubt buy directly from Paizo. The friend you introduced the game to will go to Amazon. I think Amazon is a good market for newer players IMO.
People tend to be pretty mercenary, so while some will buy direct or through the FLGS, Amazon is going to be a huge chunk of sales for any book.
 

gss000

Villager
Paizo has been pairing down for a while. For instance I think the administration of PFS is only a part of someone’s job now.

Also it looks like the pf2 core book sales have kinda stabilized. Which probably means they can find a groove and be good.

Finally the setting book sold out of stock, and sustained a sales rank in the 14000. So my guess is that they are on the bubble about how many books they needed.
I don't think you can say it's stabalized yet. In the past week it's gone up and down anywhere from 1900 to over 3000 and back in the sales rank. That's a lot of swing. Look at it like the stock market where it's never monotonic one way or the other. It'll still be some weeks before we know what the stable point is.
 

Campbell

Relaxed Intensity
I honestly think it will probably be another year before we really know where things stand for the long term. Right now many folks are just starting to get games together and try it. The real success or failure of the game is going to come down to actual play and word of mouth.

Additionally the Advanced Player's Guide is a really important book. Their success or failure with a large portion of the Pathfinder community is going to depend a lot on their execution of this book. It has a couple of classes (The Witch and The Oracle) that many Pathfinder fans find foundational. It also represents a critical mass of content that many Pathfinder players who want an option rich environment might find compelling.
 

Parmandur

Legend
I don't think you can say it's stabalized yet. In the past week it's gone up and down anywhere from 1900 to over 3000 and back in the sales rank. That's a lot of swing. Look at it like the stock market where it's never monotonic one way or the other. It'll still be some weeks before we know what the stable point is.
Keep in mind that this wavering might not mean much in terms of units sold per day.
 

Zardnaar

Hero
With sales in the 3000s I think a previous poster said it means they're selling units in the 10's.

If that's true if we all went and bought a copy on the same day we could probably kick it up 1000 spaces.

I've seen things that say Amazon is around 30 to 50% of all sales so even if they're selling 30 a day that's 35000 a year roughly which is what PF1 seemed to have averaged. It was out for ten years.

If they're selling half of PF one that could be as low as 15 or 20 a day. 50 copies a day on Amazon sustained can give you 1E D&D sales over 10 years.

People see a high sales placing and think omg huge numbers. If 5E sales of the starter set are a benchmark and Amazon is 50% of sales they only need to sell 200 a day to hit 800k over 5 years. IDK if Amazon is 50% but it was what $10-$12 at some points.

Peak Pathfinder was about 20% of 5E going by the estimates of the RPG market.
 

Zardnaar

Hero
What is funny if we all chipped in some money to get one US poster to buy 10 copies at a certain time and see if that has an effect on the sales ranking.
 

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