D&D 5E Removal of class-based stat bonuses?

[S_Dalsgaard]

I let my players place the racial bonuses in stats of their choice. It seems to work out fine. Just because the average half-orc is stronger than the average halfling, doesn't mean that have to be the case for the extra-ordinary individuals that pick up adventuring.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

The rules can reflect that without racial stat bonuses at all, if racial abilities encourage players to arrange stats such that they can better take advantage of those abilities.

That's an unnecessarily convoluted way of going about it, though, and it wouldn't reflect the reality that a half-orc wizard (rare as they may be) will be stronger than a halfling wizard of similar upbringing. There's a genetic factor involved, which shouldn't be dismissed.

 

[Mistwell]

I think it's a great idea to split the racial bonuses out into half racial, half class-based. So is the based weapon damage for the fighter, though there is a multiclassing issue with that one. But with this one, where just your first class would give you the ability boost, I think it's a good idea. Should have been in the DMG as an alternative rule.

 

[overgeeked]

That's an unnecessarily convoluted way of going about it, though, and it wouldn't reflect the reality that a half-orc wizard (rare as they may be) will be stronger than a halfling wizard of similar upbringing. There's a genetic factor involved, which shouldn't be dismissed.

There's also the years of training factor that shouldn't be dismissed. The same arguments you're making for keeping race-based bonuses (which almost no one is arguing should go away, for what it's worth), can be made for including class-based bonuses. It's not purely genetics that determines who or what a person is or becomes throughout their life. Environment and passion and training play an equally if not more important role. Race isn't something that should need to be 'overcome' mechanically in a fantasy game. A player who wants to play a forest gnome paladin shouldn't have a deficit to overcome to be on par with a mountain dwarf paladin. Making the argument that 'lore this, or stories that' is more than a bit limited in thinking. Before Drizzt is was just known that all dark elves were pure evil. All keeping race-based stat bonuses does is reinforce dated stereotypes and limit players' imaginations.

You don't get many dwarf wizards at the table because they're mechanically hindered, which reinforces some of the terrible fantasy fiction stereotypes, and the few players and DMs who internalize these things and go on to write fantasy fiction then include these stereotypes in their fiction, which is then used to reinforce the stereotypes at the table.

I don't know about you, but after 30+ years of playing minor variations on the same basic tropes and stereotypes, I'd welcome the breath of fresh air that would be completely open (and mechanically supported) race/class combinations. I mean honestly, why the hell not? It's fantasy. A dotty old man with a pointy hat and a weak heart haplessly wandering through a death-trap filled with big nasty beasties trying to kill and eat him who, when those beasties attack, mumbles a few words to create a massive ball of fire to launch at his enemies but then somehow forgets how to do that is utterly believable, but a particular gnome being stronger than a particular half-orc is not? Come on. You could similarly reinforce the racial stereotypes by just including a bit of text saying that half-orc tend to be stronger and prefer melee fighting classes. Done. Same effect as a set race-based bonus, without hamstringing players who want their characters to go against type.

 

[Corpsetaker]

I think it's a great idea to split the racial bonuses out into half racial, half class-based. So is the based weapon damage for the fighter, though there is a multiclassing issue with that one. But with this one, where just your first class would give you the ability boost, I think it's a good idea. Should have been in the DMG as an alternative rule.

You could easily place a rule that states only the stat bonus is gained when the first class is chosen and none after that.

 

[ninjayeti]

Class based bonuses are totally unnecessary in a system that already lets you arrange your attribute scores optimally for your class. How does a rule that just lets you start out with highest stat a bit higher really add anything to the game?

Now if you had a system were scores were not assigned to the attributes of your choice (like some of the 1E methods) then a class based bonus might make sense.

 

[bedir than]

Now if you had a system were scores were not assigned to the attributes of your choice (like some of the 1E methods) then a class based bonus might make sense.

I could totally see this.

I allow a player to play a pre-hero, and so as a commoner they gain more control of how they develop into heroes

 

[Rune]

That's an unnecessarily convoluted way of going about it, though, and it wouldn't reflect the reality that a half-orc wizard (rare as they may be) will be stronger than a halfling wizard of similar upbringing. There's a genetic factor involved, which shouldn't be dismissed.

If by "convoluted," you mean "subtle, but in no way convoluted," I agree with you. The only part of what I'm talking about that isn't already implemented in the game to some degree is the part where racial stat bonuses don't exist. Having racial abilities do what they already do but without having races provide stat boosts is a simplification. As to your second point: some would call that a feature, not a bug.

There's also the years of training factor that shouldn't be dismissed. The same arguments you're making for keeping race-based bonuses (which almost no one is arguing should go away, for what it's worth), can be made for including class-based bonuses. It's not purely genetics that determines who or what a person is or becomes throughout their life.

To be fair, Saelorn was responding to a post in which I did make the claim that racial stat preferences could be encouraged without granting racial stat bonuses, at all.

You don't get many dwarf wizards at the table because they're mechanically hindered, which reinforces some of the terrible fantasy fiction stereotypes, and the few players and DMs who internalize these things and go on to write fantasy fiction then include these stereotypes in their fiction, which is then used to reinforce the stereotypes at the table.

Well, let's not get crazy, here. Bad fantasy fiction written by bad fantasy writers won't magically become good just because the game they're playing reflects a different set of expectations than those of tradition. You might get different cliches, but they'll still be cliches.

 

[overgeeked]

Class based bonuses are totally unnecessary in a system that already lets you arrange your attribute scores optimally for your class. How does a rule that just lets you start out with highest stat a bit higher really add anything to the game?

Now if you had a system were scores were not assigned to the attributes of your choice (like some of the 1E methods) then a class based bonus might make sense.

You could make the exact same argument against race-based modifiers. "Race-based bonuses are totally unnecessary in a system that already lets you arrange your attribute scores optimally for your race. How does a rule that just lets you start out with the highest stat a bit higher really add anything to the game?" Since the game already allows you to put your stats where you want them, why do you need mechanical reinforcement of your race? If you want to play a strong half-orc, just put a higher stat in strength.

The reason for both race and class (or possibly neither) is that providing a bonus for race pigeon-holes and stereotypes characters based on their race. A half-orc wizard will be less than an elf wizard for a lot of play time if not their entire career. It's only because of bounded numbers in 5E that permit the possibility of "lesser races" catching up.

 

[Minigiant]

I get you could do this if you weaken the array.

15/14/13/12/10/8
to
14/13/13/12/10/8

Then you get +2 to your class' primary (+1/+1 if you are a hybrid class)