D&D 5E removing cantrips: what to give instead?

[Tales and Chronicles]

How about giving all spellcasters Metamagic and Magic points-to-spell-slots mechanic, but remove the damage cantrips? Lets say we sorcerers get something really cool and thematic to compensate (honestly no idea here, buts let say shapeshifting in creatures fitting their origin ala druid).

 

[Don Durito]

Would you need to give anything? Maybe you could just reduce the amount of encounters per long rest?

 

[cmad1977]

I’d either give an extra slot here and there or I’d change the structure of encounters/battles to accommodate the change.

 

[Tony Vargas]

I played many years of several editions of the game that did not have cantrips, and they add two huge steps forward that would need to be implemented in other ways in order for me to want to play without them.

1. They made magical characters feel magical.

There's a school of D&D Dogma in which they did the opposite, though: that at-will magic becomes commonplace, and therefore mundane. (TBH, by that logic, reliable n/day magic has the same issue on a world-building level.)

However, you could add back the minor utility of cantrips with a long-duration low-level convenience-magic spell - as 2e did.

2. They made casters useful when they weren't using slots. They brought down the average power of the slots to keep them balanced. These are closely related.

They are, and they didn't actually happen that way, IMHO. 3e brought up the baseline effectiveness of casters by giving the light crossbow - a safe-to-use, OK attack for rounds that didn't warrant casting. It in no way brought down the effectiveness of spells, giving casters moar spells, loosening restrictions on spells, like making DCs and Concentration checks subject to heavy optimization, making casting in armor possible with some build work, evading AoOs with a check, etc, etc...

4e actually did bring up the baseline of 'casters' (other than Martial Sources) and bring down their daily resources to balance - they also gave the non-casters the same balance scheme.

Relative to 3e, 5e brought up the baseline of casters dramatically, and pulled in the power of slots a bit (not always consistently). Relative to 4e, 5e pulled in the at-will baseline for casters slightly, and greatly expanded the number & power of slots, while buffing up the martial base-line DPR with Extra Attack and eliminating limited resources for them almost completely.

So, really, if balance is a concern, eliminating cantrips entirely won't hurt a bit. It won't be enough either, and it's the kind of swingy, take-turns-not-having-fun 'balance' we had in the classic game, but it certainly not going to leave casters in the cold.

3. Keep different classes different. In other words, if every class is a fighter, you only need one class. Don't make all the classes feel the same.

Also not much of a concern. The classes that have cantrips are already very different from those who do not - and already not very different from eachother, with that difference mostly being in a handful of unique spells, and the odd class ability.

 

[Blue]

There's a school of D&D Dogma in which they did the opposite, though: that at-will magic becomes commonplace, and therefore mundane. (TBH, by that logic, reliable n/day magic has the same issue on a world-building level.)

There's a school that combat cantrips have done this, but most of the "get rid of cantrips" people are just fine with the flavor cantrips, which is what I was specifically calling out in Point #1. So there is maybe a few zealots, but no "school" of people who are saying this.

So, really, if balance is a concern, eliminating cantrips entirely won't hurt a bit. It won't be enough either, and it's the kind of swingy, take-turns-not-having-fun 'balance' we had in the classic game, but it certainly not going to leave casters in the cold.

I invite you to share some math on that point. I think you'll find that a ~+2 attack/damage mod for a single die of simple weapon damage will be significant less than a cantrip in Tier 2 or higher of play.

Also not much of a concern. The classes that have cantrips are already very different from those who do not - and already not very different from eachother, with that difference mostly being in a handful of unique spells, and the odd class ability.

Except that some of the options were to add in weapon proficiencies. So it was explicitly a concern. It's like the folks who want to add Extra Attack to rogues "because all the other weapon wielder have it".

 

[Tony Vargas]

There's a school that combat cantrips have done this, but most of the "get rid of cantrips" people are just fine with the flavor cantrips

I got the impression it was the at-will aspect, regardless, that rendered magic less-magical-feeling.

a ~+2 attack/damage mod for a single die of simple weapon damage will be significant less than a cantrip in Tier 2 or higher of play.
...Except that some of the options were to add in weapon proficiencies. So it was explicitly a concern.

Sorry, I meant "not a concern" in the context of removing cantrips with no compensation, at all.
Could be all sorts of concerns with any given compensation scheme, of course.

 

[Weiley31]

WHoah mind blown!
Cinder Wand of Firebolt
Frozen Rose of Ray of Frost
Reliquary of Guidance
Mistloe of Thorn Whip

Love it!

BLACK ELDRITCH ROSE! (it casts Eldritch Blast.)

 

[Shiroiken]

I would love to get rid of cantrips, but don't see a viable way to do so easily in 5e. Preferably having more lower level spell slots overall (replacing the need) would work, but this might be hard to balance against the number of encounters per long rest.

 

[Pauln6]

I'd probably say allow them to choose one non-combat cantrip that they can use at will and then the others just take the same number of castings as level one spells but per short rest. I'd also add modifier damage to non-at-will cantrips. Wizards and sorcerers should get one extra at will cantrip based on subclass.

 

[Uller]

What about just a limit rather than take them away completely. Instead of "cantrips known" you get to cast that many per long rest (or maybe even long or short rest?) but can cast any of them.

I like the non-combat cantrips. They add flavor and interesting utility to casters. I don't like the spamming of damage cantrips so much.