Removing homogenity from 4e

[LostSoul]

But once the fight is done, the first wizard can't light things on fire. The second wizard can't make illusions of doors.

Why wouldn't you be able to set fires using Scorching Burst?

Why wouldn't you be able to create an illusion of a door with Illusory Wall? "A seemingly solid wall materializes before your foes, dividing the battlefield with your convincing illusion."

 

[fanboy2000]

Neither of these rituals are fast ("Quick, the ogre is coming! Make an illusion of a door!" Ok, can you hold him off for 10 minutes while I try?") both are expensive (costing gp per casting, whereas the 3.5 spells had negligible cost) and while Hallucinatory item lasts 24 hours (rather than concentration of the 1st level spell) it doesn't pass the sniff test the minute you touch, or interact, with it (whereas the 3e spell allows a will save to disbelieve).

Well, to be fair, I was responding to someone who claimed that there weren't mechanics to back-up out of combat actions or roleplaying except for skill challenges. It was a very narrow response, not intended to address what ruleset is better for any given situation.

So, how about this: I agree with you, Hallucinary Item sucks for making a door to stop or slow ogres.

Anyways, it won't make a door, but Phantasmal Terrain can slow down an ogre. Given that an Ogre Skirmisher has a speed of 8, that seems like a worthy goal.

 

[Remathilis]

Anyways, it won't make a door, but Phantasmal Terrain can slow down an ogre. Given that an Ogre Skirmisher has a speed of 8, that seems like a worthy goal.

Only if there's already difficult terrain for the ogre to cross through (it increases the amount of extra movement for difficult terrain from 1 sq to 2 sqs.) Hopefully, the wizard has an ability to make rubble or a really good movement rate to get down an already difficult-terrain hallway, (maybe this is where all those short-range teleports come in handy?) because otherwise, he's no better off with Phantasmal Terrain than he was painting the door on the wall!

 

[Gothmog]

*snip* Tons of awesome stuff by ferratus.

Well said, and very eloquently explained. XP for you sir!

I hadn't really thought of it the way you explained it, but you're absolutely right- 4e does tell you what happens rather than how you do it, and you are encouraged to make up the "how"of how things happen using the narrative or what makes sense for the character. I loved your example of the psion vs the rogue using Intimidate to cow someone into submission- very eloquent and GREAT roleplaying potential. In that regard 4e is much more of a successor to the spirit of OD&D, 1e, and 2e than 3e was. Numerous people I've talked to have told me that 4e has a very "old-school" vibe to it, and I think this is one of the main reasons why. I've always approached my games in this fashion, its probably why 4e plays and resonates so well with me, and why 3e seemed to fall flat on its face, feel restrictive, and be crushed under its own weight.

 

[fanboy2000]

Only if there's already difficult terrain for the ogre to cross through (it increases the amount of extra movement for difficult terrain from 1 sq to 2 sqs.) Hopefully, the wizard has an ability to make rubble or a really good movement rate to get down an already difficult-terrain hallway, (maybe this is where all those short-range teleports come in handy?) because otherwise, he's no better off with Phantasmal Terrain than he was painting the door on the wall!

The Illusionist could also throw-up and Illusory Wall, it's still not a door, but hey it doesn't require the existence of difficult terrain!

 

[Thasmodious]

In that regard 4e is much more of a successor to the spirit of OD&D, 1e, and 2e than 3e was. Numerous people I've talked to have told me that 4e has a very "old-school" vibe to it, and I think this is one of the main reasons why. I've always approached my games in this fashion, its probably why 4e plays and resonates so well with me, and why 3e seemed to fall flat on its face, feel restrictive, and be crushed under its own weight.

I feel the same way. Even though old school players scoff at 4e players who feel the game encapsulates some of the best philosophy of the early editions. I can understand their position, some of our game assumptions are entirely different (resolution through player skill vs. character skill for example), but it doesn't change the fact that a number of old school gamers playing 4e find resonance with the way we used to play. I feel that of all the existing editions of D&D, 3e was the aberrant one in that it is the only one that went the complex, rule for everything approach and required mechanical representation for character details outside of class/adventurer roles (profession and craft skills). Late 2e is where we saw the shift in that thinking (the Options material), I think, but it was a core assumption of 3e.

 

[ferratus]

I don't get what Rem is going on about. The 3.5 spells Major Image and Illusionary Wall also are proven false when touched. 4e Illusionary Wall at least creates a barrier that can possibly stand up to being touched.

 

[ferratus]

I feel that of all the existing editions of D&D, 3e was the aberrant one in that it is the only one that went the complex, rule for everything approach and required mechanical representation for character details outside of class/adventurer roles (profession and craft skills). Late 2e is where we saw the shift in that thinking (the Options material), I think, but it was a core assumption of 3e.

There were NWP and Secondary skills that covered being a brewer or cook or farmer and so on in 2e. Few ever took them, or 3e's craft and profession skills, but they were there.

I don't miss them myself. If the character has any knowledge of farming or spinning wool, he'll let me know. I'll let him buy his own farm, put in the crop and raise up the crop until amber waves of grain ripple in the breeze.

Then goblins will burn his farm to ashes because of what he did to them back in first level. Mwhahaha!

 

[fanboy2000]

I don't get what Rem is going on about. The 3.5 spells Major Image and Illusionary Wall also are proven false when touched. 4e Illusionary Wall at least creates a barrier that can possibly stand up to being touched.

Silent Image (the spell Remathilis quoted in his first reply to me) is a more versatile spell in terms what the caster can create. It creates a "visual illusion of an object, creature, or force, as visualized by you..." Such a description includes both doors and walls. Illusionary Wall only includes (unsurprisingly) walls.

Silent Image is a first level spell, available to all wizards who wish to cast illusions. In fact if it lacks anything, it's specificity. Does a door or wall created by the caster block line of sight? Does seen the wall count as interacting with it? The spell is silent on that, but I think reasonable DMs and players can come to reasonable conclusions. My own answer to those questions is yes to both.

This reflects, I think, a design choice. Broad spells like silent image and polymorph have been broken-up into a multitude of different powers of very specific definition. Skittering Sneak, for example is possible under the broader 3.5 polymorph, but that no longer exists and it's functionality is spread out over various powers a druid possess. The same is true of illusions. Unfortunately, the designers neglected to give a general illusion power (similar to Wild Shape) that allows illusionists to create simple illusions. So, no doors.

 

[Rechan]

This reflects, I think, a design choice. Broad spells like silent image and polymorph have been broken-up into a multitude of different powers of very specific definition. Skittering Sneak, for example is possible under the broader 3.5 polymorph, but that no longer exists and it's functionality is spread out over various powers a druid possess. The same is true of illusions. Unfortunately, the designers neglected to give a general illusion power (similar to Wild Shape) that allows illusionists to create simple illusions. So, no doors.

It should be noted that PFRPG also breaks up Wild Shape/Polymorph into those types of things. I wonder how PFRPG treats illusions.