Removing Initiative

[Tales and Chronicles]

I recently started playing Dungeon World, a PbtA game that replicate the elements of D&D in a less mechanical way. In DW, there's no Initiative: combat goes the same way as exploration does. Players act in the order that fiction and narrative require rather than on a fixed place in an pre-determined order. I my latest D&D game, I used the popcorn initiative and players love it and I would like to take the idea a little further. In DW, monsters dont have a ''turn'' in the fiction, their actions happens on a missed action by the players: when the players miss an action, the Gm gets to use the monster/encounter scene to make a Move from this list:
•Use a monster, danger, or location move
•Reveal an unwelcome truth
•Show signs of an approaching threat
•Deal damage (enemy makes an attack)
•Use up their resources
•Turn their move back on them
•Separate them
•give an opportunity that fits a class’ abilities
• give a downside to their class, race, or equipment
•Offer an opportunity, with or without cost
•Put someone in a spot
•Tell them the requirements or consequences and ask

So if a player describe ''My fighter lunge at the hill giant, climb on its belly than try to stab his forehead'' I would ask him to make a Athletic check then an Attack roll, if any of those would fail, I would use the Hill Giant to make one of the mentioned Moves to add complication to the players actions. Then I would put the spot on another player '' The half-giant son of the chieftain notice Jim the spellcaster and throw a volley of huge rocks at him: what do you do?''. No need for Ini.

I would also use the DMG option to give the players ''Success at a cost'': When the players get a result equal or miss by 1 or 2, the players ''succeed'' at their described action, but the Dm gets to make a Move against them. Should they miss by more than 2, their action failed AND the GM get to make a Move.

What do you think? Is it possible to remove Initiative from the game without breaking to much things?

 

[Sadras]

I recently started playing Dungeon World, a PbtA game that replicate the elements of D&D in a less mechanical way. In DW, there's no Initiative: combat goes the same way as exploration does. Players act in the order that fiction and narrative require rather than on a fixed place in an pre-determined order. I my latest D&D game, I used the popcorn initiative and players love it and I would like to take the idea a little further. In DW, monsters dont have a ''turn'' in the fiction, their actions happens on a missed action by the players: when the players miss an action, the Gm gets to use the monster/encounter scene to make a Move from this list:
•Use a monster, danger, or location move
•Reveal an unwelcome truth
•Show signs of an approaching threat
•Deal damage (enemy makes an attack)
•Use up their resources
•Turn their move back on them
•Separate them
•give an opportunity that fits a class’ abilities
• give a downside to their class, race, or equipment
•Offer an opportunity, with or without cost
•Put someone in a spot
•Tell them the requirements or consequences and ask

So if a player describe ''My fighter lunge at the hill giant, climb on its belly than try to stab his forehead'' I would ask him to make a Athletic check then an Attack roll, if any of those would fail, I would use the Hill Giant to make one of the mentioned Moves to add complication to the players actions. Then I would put the spot on another player '' The half-giant son of the chieftain notice Jim the spellcaster and throw a volley of huge rocks at him: what do you do?''. No need for Ini.

Sounds great - but just so I can get my head around it I have some questions.

If the Giant does or does not miss Jim, is it Jim the spellcaster's turn next?
If Jim the Spellcaster misses, is it the Giant's turn again?
What about Craig the Rogue and Marge the Cleric, when do they go...?

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

Sounds great - but just so I can get my head around it I have some questions.

If the Giant does or does not miss Jim, is it Jim the spellcaster's turn next?
If Jim the Spellcaster misses, is it the Giant's turn again?
What about Craig the Rogue and Marge the Cleric, when do they go...?

Yeah, that's the part that's hard to understand with DW when you come from initiative-using game: monsters dont have turn, they only act when the players miss an action. The other players go when they want to. Lets say we resolve the assault on the Hillg giant, the fighter succeed and all is good; we pause this scene for a moment and ''put the spot light'' on another character who want to go and its situation.

If Jim may say that he runs to avoid the rock shower (Dex save) then throw a firebolt at the half-giant (attack roll). If he misses the Save, he would maybe take a little damage and the firebolt would have disadvantage. Or if the attack barely hit, the half-giant could take the damage, but rush forward the mage and getting next to him in no time. (just examples)

 

[GameOgre]

Craig the Rogue

Oh Gods not that $#$%$.

Craig is like the DM's bane. My condolences.

Kill Craig for me! When you do it, tell him"This is for Gameogres Fishmonger NPC's"

Thanks!

 

[Sadras]

Yeah, that's the part that's hard to understand with DW when you come from initiative-using game: monsters dont have turn, they only act when the players miss an action. The other players go when they want to. Lets say we resolve the assault on the Hillg giant, the fighter succeed and all is good; we pause this scene for a moment and ''put the spot light'' on another character who want to go and its situation.

If Jim may say that he runs to avoid the rock shower (Dex save) then throw a firebolt at the half-giant (attack roll). If he misses the Save, he would maybe take a little damage and the firebolt would have disadvantage. Or if the attack barely hit, the half-giant could take the damage, but rush forward the mage and getting next to him in no time. (just examples)

Okay but from this I'm understanding that if all the PCs are successful the Giant does not act, he just gets hammered away...until a miss or near miss does in fact present itself.

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

After a quick look at the database, there's probably too many things that rely on Initiative (assassin, thief, barbarian, some spells etc) to remove it altogether. I'll probably keep the popcorn initiative but allow my monsters to use more ''out of turn'' actions to make the combat a little less static.

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

Okay but from this I'm understanding that if all the PCs are successful the Giant does not act, he just gets hammered away...until a miss or near miss does in fact present itself.

Exactly. Maybe the chances to misses are higher with DW, I dont do math. Still, its rare at my table that a whole turn goes without any missed action. But you are right, I think it would require too much tweaking to work.

 

[Sadras]

After a quick look at the database, there's probably too many things that rely on Initiative (assassin, thief, barbarian, some spells etc) to remove it altogether. I'll probably keep the popcorn initiative but allow my monsters to use more ''out of turn'' actions to make the combat a little less static.

Off the top of my head...

1. Legendary Actions is one way using the mechanics of the game.
2. Changing up the terrain is another way - so for instance the white dragon's cold breath weapon attack might make the area affected difficult terrain for a round.
3. Using the in-game fiction - The missed club attack by the giant might force movement to have avoided the attack, at the character's choice of direction of course, but still.

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

Off the top of my head...

1. Legendary Actions is one way using the mechanics of the game.
2. Changing up the terrain is another way - so for instance the white dragon's cold breath weapon attack might make the area affected difficult terrain for a round.
3. Using the in-game fiction - The missed club attack by the giant might force movement to have avoided the attack, at the character's choice of direction of course, but still.

Good ideas. I always try to make combat less static, but with a group of seven new players, my monster turns come so rarely that when it does, I just want to speed up the combat and be done with it .

 

[5ekyu]

I recently started playing Dungeon World, a PbtA game that replicate the elements of D&D in a less mechanical way. In DW, there's no Initiative: combat goes the same way as exploration does. Players act in the order that fiction and narrative require rather than on a fixed place in an pre-determined order. I my latest D&D game, I used the popcorn initiative and players love it and I would like to take the idea a little further. In DW, monsters dont have a ''turn'' in the fiction, their actions happens on a missed action by the players: when the players miss an action, the Gm gets to use the monster/encounter scene to make a Move from this list:
•Use a monster, danger, or location move
•Reveal an unwelcome truth
•Show signs of an approaching threat
•Deal damage (enemy makes an attack)
•Use up their resources
•Turn their move back on them
•Separate them
•give an opportunity that fits a class’ abilities
• give a downside to their class, race, or equipment
•Offer an opportunity, with or without cost
•Put someone in a spot
•Tell them the requirements or consequences and ask

So if a player describe ''My fighter lunge at the hill giant, climb on its belly than try to stab his forehead'' I would ask him to make a Athletic check then an Attack roll, if any of those would fail, I would use the Hill Giant to make one of the mentioned Moves to add complication to the players actions. Then I would put the spot on another player '' The half-giant son of the chieftain notice Jim the spellcaster and throw a volley of huge rocks at him: what do you do?''. No need for Ini.

I would also use the DMG option to give the players ''Success at a cost'': When the players get a result equal or miss by 1 or 2, the players ''succeed'' at their described action, but the Dm gets to make a Move against them. Should they miss by more than 2, their action failed AND the GM get to make a Move.

What do you think? Is it possible to remove Initiative from the game without breaking to much things?

For an 18month campaign we used "first or last letting pcs pick if one of them gets the first spot or the last spot and then we alternate with them choosing theirs me choosing mine.

Worked great.