Removing The Stat Penaly on Volo's Guide Orcs

[pukunui]

I'm disappointed it didn't have one of Relentless Endurance or Savage Attack.

As I mentioned above, orcs had something similar to Relentless Endurance during the playtest. That's undoubtedly where the half-orc trait came from. It ultimately got dropped from the orc in the MM but not from the half-orc in the PHB.

EDIT: Here's the trait I'm talking about:

Relentless: If an attack reduces the orc to 0 hit points or fewer but doesn't kill it outright, it is not knocked unconscious or killed as a result until the end of its next turn, provided it still has 0 hit points or fewer.

I vaguely recall the devs talking about why they swapped it out for the Aggressive trait instead but I can't remember exactly what was said.

 

[bedir than]

But Aggressive is just added movement. Which is neat, but doesn't make up for the half-orc having added damage and added HP. The Orc is clearly inferior, by far.

 

[pukunui]

But Aggressive is just added movement. Which is neat, but doesn't make up for the half-orc having added damage and added HP. The Orc is clearly inferior, by far.

I agree. Just trying to shed some light on why the half-orc has Relentless Endurance but the full orc does not.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Intelligent Orcs would be 'Scro.'* Dna, ecnis ew ydaerla evah Nilbogs...
















* yeah, that was a Spelljammer reference.

 

[TheCosmicKid]

Intelligent Orcs would be 'Scro.' Dna, ecnis ew ydaerla evah Nilbogs...

"Cros", rather.

Crows?

Orcs are big, dumb, hairy brutes who can pick their noses but can't fly.

Crows are small, smart, feathery sneaks who can fly but can't pick their noses.

Yeah, checks out.

 

[QuietBrowser]

I tend to use in my games more Warcraft and Elder Scrolls based Orcs than the standard D&D ones (i know that in both franchises the orcs started off as closer to classic ones, but i prefer the more known and evolved versions) and was actually pretty disappointed when i read about them having a -2 penalty to int. Since i also feel that stat penalties are a step backwards, i started thinking what would happen if i would just decide to remove the penalty.

It will be a bit time until i get a copy of Volo's Guide to monster so i'm not having a full knowledge of their racials. I remember mentions of the aggressive trait and powerful build, also +2 str. So they are already losing a stat point even without the penalty. Also combat wise they aren't gaining much from int (unless they are wizards, arcane tricksters or eldritch knights). Having possibly better int checks is not a problem for me

So would it be a reasoinable step or am i better off either using the half-orc stats for full orcs or homebrewing a better fitting version for me?

Whether the "half-orcs for full-orcs" or "homebrew a better orc" option is best depends on how well you think the current half-orc fits your vision of a "properly orcy orc".

Half-orcs in 5e canon get +2 Str and +1 Con, Menacing (free proficiency in Intimidation), Relentless Endurance (can keep from being reduced to 0 HP once per long rest) and Savage Attack (+1 dice worth of damage on critical hits with melee weapons).

The canonical 5e Orc is just the half-orc with -2 Int and swapping Relentless Endurance and Savage Attack for Aggressive (can use a bonus action to move full-speed to an enemy) and Powerful Build (+1 size larger for encumbrance, carrying, dragging, lifting).

As many people have complained, the Powerful Build trait is so meaningless as to be essentially nothing but a flavor ability.

So, do you think the Half-Orc "feels" enough like an orc to just reskin it? Or do you think a purebreed orc needs to be different?

 

[Ketser]

In my previous campaign i used half orc stats for both "full" and half orcs. i hoped that Volo's Guide to monsters would give me a chance to mechanically separate them in a new one, but after reading this thread and giving it a bit more thought i feel that i continue using half orc stats for both. Maybe i use the Volo's Orc stats (minus the int penalty) for a subrace or something.

Thanks for anwers, helped to clear my head.

 

[TheCosmicKid]

The canonical 5e Orc is just the half-orc with -2 Int and swapping Relentless Endurance and Savage Attack for Aggressive (can use a bonus action to move full-speed to an enemy) and Powerful Build (+1 size larger for encumbrance, carrying, dragging, lifting).

As many people have complained, the Powerful Build trait is so meaningless as to be essentially nothing but a flavor ability.

To be fair, Aggressive is pretty darn good. Relentless Endurance and Savage Attack for Aggressive seems like a fair trade.

As for the -2 Int, yeah, I think that could be discarded without breaking anything. But I see a couple of reasons why they put it in, and if I'm right, they're actually pretty clever. What it does is make this monster race less overall attractive than a core race, but does so in a way that respects the game's legacy and doesn't handicap the race in doing what it's supposed to be good at. So players who are excited about rolling an orc and smashing face with heavy weapons are going to be happy with how their character performs, but players who are just looking for the optimal race to fit their tank build are probably going to opt for the half-orc or mountain dwarf and keep the party more "normal". And I like that. It's been kind of annoying in previous editions when you just want to play a barbarian or whatever without hullabaloo, but you can't help but notice that this weirdo monster race in a splatbook has slightly better stats than any of the common races.

tl;dr: I think it's an anti-power-creep safeguard.

 

[Sorcerers Apprentice]

As I mentioned above, orcs had something similar to Relentless Endurance during the playtest. That's undoubtedly where the half-orc trait came from. It ultimately got dropped from the orc in the MM but not from the half-orc in the PHB.

I vaguely recall the devs talking about why they swapped it out for the Aggressive trait instead but I can't remember exactly what was said.

I can imagine why. Orcs are supposed to be cannon fodder in evil armies facing the players, which means their main narrative job is to die. It's not very satisfying when you blast an orc warband with a fireball but none of them actually fall over, until after they have made one last charge.

 

[pukunui]

I can imagine why. Orcs are supposed to be cannon fodder in evil armies facing the players, which means their main narrative job is to die. It's not very satisfying when you blast an orc warband with a fireball but none of them actually fall over, until after they have made one last charge.

Yeah. I don't think that was the reason they gave, though. I'll have to see if I can find it.