Removing The Stat Penaly on Volo's Guide Orcs

[Krachek]

That's a matter of tradition and labeling, not capability. Gul'dan and the other warlocks are easily as intelligent as human mages, and learn their magic through books and study. They're not Charisma casters like in D&D.

I have alway see warlock as lazy mage, who take short cut to access power.
By definition player race are equals, but when add monster race you need to make some twist.
wow orc and Dnd orc are two separate race sharing the same name.

 

[TheCosmicKid]

I don't know. As, say, a Berserker (which is pretty orcish), I can't use Aggressive on rounds that I want to start Raging, nor if I'm using my Frenzy, but Relentless Endurance and Savage Attack are always nice to have.

I'm not saying Relentless Endurance and Savage Attack aren't nice to have. But so is being able to get to the enemy twice as fast. In terms of simple frequency, I suspect you're going to be dashing with Aggressive more often than you're going to be rolling a critical hit or dropping to 0 hit points. Sure, you can't do all of your things on the same turn, but neither can anyone else. A rogue with Cunning Action and two weapons has to decide how to use his bonus action. A caster with multiple spells prepared has to decide which one to cast with her action. The value lies in diversity of options.

 

[TheCosmicKid]

I have alway see warlock as lazy mage, who take short cut to access power.
By definition player race are equals, but when add monster race you need to make some twist.
wow orc and Dnd orc are two separate race sharing the same name.

I think it's more true that WoW warlocks and D&D warlocks are two separate classes sharing the same name.

 

[GreenTengu]

Here is how I would solve this

Orc
+2 Strength
Age - Orcs mature faster than humans reaching maturity around the age of 13, they tend to live no longer than 75 years but very few live long enough to die of old age.
Alignment - Orcs are wild with highly unstable emotions that cause them to act in Chaotic ways, they have little respect for any but the most basic rules of society. Most Orcs come from environments where having any sympathy for others and hesitating to act impulsively and selfishly can cost one's life and are heavily influenced by Gruumish causing them to be generally evil.
Medium Size (Range from 5 foot to 6 and a half feet tall)
Speed 30
Dark Vision
Proficiency in Intimidate ("Menacing")
Powerful Build
Relentless Endurance
Subraces:
Mountain Orc - +1 Constitution, Savage Attacks
Gray Orc - +1 Wisdom, Aggressive

This even allows them to carry over the idea that Mountain Orcs hit harder while Gray Orcs are swifter as well as the fact that Mountain Orcs tend to live in very inhospitable conditions while Gray Orcs are more plains hunters.
And, really, if Powerful Build or Relentless Endurance are coming into play for you anywhere near as often as the Dwarf's Poison Resilience or the Elf's resistance to Charm, something is very wrong. So why not just have both as part of the base race?

Half-Orc
+1 Strength, +1 Constitution, +1 Any two OTHER scores
Age - Reach adulthood around 15 years of age, live less than a century.
Alignment - Tend towards Chaotic due to being outcast of both human and Orcish society, no particular tendency towards good or evil.
Medium Size (Range from 5 foot to over 6 feet tall)
Speed 30
Dark Vision
Relentless Endurance
1 Weapon Proficiency (your choice)
1 Skill Proficiency (your choice)
1 Tool Proficiency (your choice)


There you go, problem solved. These are both better balanced with the main core races than what you had before and the half-orc actually feels like a HALF Orc rather than just "Orc species that can be a good guy" like they have felt in pretty much every edition since 1st.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

I'm not saying Relentless Endurance and Savage Attack aren't nice to have. But so is being able to get to the enemy twice as fast. In terms of simple frequency, I suspect you're going to be dashing with Aggressive more often than you're going to be rolling a critical hit or dropping to 0 hit points. Sure, you can't do all of your things on the same turn, but neither can anyone else. A rogue with Cunning Action and two weapons has to decide how to use his bonus action. A caster with multiple spells prepared has to decide which one to cast with her action. The value lies in diversity of options.

The more I think of it, the more I think that it really depends on what class you are playing. For a typical fighter (or even for most fighters), Aggressive is probably better than Relentless Endurance + Savage Attacker. For a Totem Barbarian...it's unclear. For a Berserker Barbarian, I think Relentless Endurance + Savage Attacker is more desireable.

So as a house rule, I'm considering allowing orc to let you take the option of either Aggressive OR Relentless Endurance + Savage Attacker.

 

[Krachek]

I think it's more true that WoW warlocks and D&D warlocks are two separate classes sharing the same name.

That is true.
When a Dm want to play in the Wow universe, he should know he have a complex adaptation to put in place.
Volo is fine for general Dnd.

 

[Ketser]

Create a sub race for your setting. Half orc could be a good start.
but even in wow orc mage are an exception. You wont find orc mage in the original wow lore.

The original lore never said that orcs are less intelligent. In the original lore the fel magic was pretty "intelligence based." The fact that orcs didn't have access to mages was simply because studying arcane takes a considerable amount of time, many orcs also felt it being too close to warlock magic or something they associated far more with the Alliance. But time passed and some of the orcs started taking interest in the arcane. Are the rare? Yes. But not because the lack of intelligence, more because their race has basically just started studying the arcane. A lot of Cataclysm expanded class options for races are like that.

And damn there are alot orc NPCs and enemies that are engineers/tinkerers. So even outside magic the warcraft orc is smarter then the classic D&D this said.

When a Dm want to play in the Wow universe, he should know he have a complex adaptation to put in place.
Volo is fine for general Dnd.

Well i want to have a bit different orcs than the standard ones, also i would make an argument of the orcs in Eberron being far closer to Warcraft and TES ones than the standard D&D ones. And maybe this is a reason why i also feel disappointed in Volo's Guide version. In some ways this "optional monster race" version doesn't support well with some of the newer concepts for orcish race/culture. And in many ways 5e has hugged too close to the old "those creatures are always irredeemable monsters." I get that some players prefer the more monstrous orcs and this is fine, i would just have liked if there was official support to the Warcraft/TES/Eberron orcs. The Volo's Guide stats can work for them too, but the way how the race is presented: an optional-optional monstrous stats for building NPCs with an aged mechanic that standard PC races don't have. In many ways them (and some others) just being treated as monsters that some players like to play is a greater issue than the -2 penalty to int.

Talking of stats penalties. Is a int penalty really a good way to note that a certain race is just less civilized? This whole conversation has made me think back to 3.x era and a little issue i started getting with int penalties back then, where it sometimes felt that almost every primitive or simplistic race/culture got assigned an arbitrary -2 int penalty. While some of them could really be considered less intelligent, mostly it was used by the devs to say this race is more primitive, simplistic, less interested in intellectual pursuits. Maybe its just my experience, but a lot players tended to take that -2 int means that race is stupid, with only a few getting what the penalty really meant. Should we really have a view that less civilized equals less intelligent? Because that's something that it will imply to a lot of people.

Perhaps this is the main problem with stat penalties, they tend force characters into certain concepts rather than encourage trying to play against the role. There were of course people who tied to play half orc wizards in 3.5 and had probably some really get roleplaying possibilities with it. But they were a rarity. Having only bonuses and racials, removes the barrier of fear of making a too weak character.

Coming back to orcs. In my campaign they have been a semi-nomadic race who has been usually living in the harsher regions. Yes occasional warbands have raided civilized lands and have been served as mercenaries in a bit more questionable forces, but both have also been done by "the standard D&D races." Now they have started getting civilized, trade more often with other races, with orc merchants and mercenaries coming a far more common sight. But they are still this warrior culture that probably has a harder time adjusting to some concepts (for example while herding is accepted, orcs tend to treat farming as something lesser. Most of plant based food coming from foraging or trading. An "academic orc" acts probably more like a skald or cunning man/woman, but wouldn't be worse than a similar version among other races.

In general i'm feeling the half orc stats being a better fit. If a player really wants to play with the Volo's stats, then i might allow it, asking how important for them is the stat penalty and saying it directly out that for me its an unnecessary addition.

PS. Because i just remembered it. Didn't actually FR try to make their orcs more civilized or is it one of the 4e things they are trying to erase from history?

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Just do it. I've the same preference for orcs that aren't dumb, and the race is a bit weak as is bc the designers overestimate the value of powerful build.

 

[Krachek]

In my home brew world I have two races of orc. The ones from the old world, and the one native from the continent where the campaign is based who are Wow inspired.
I have also 3 races of goblin, the classic one, the wow inspired, and an oriental inspired goblin that I take from Rackham lore.

We have enough template to create any home brew playable race for any setting.

 

[CapnZapp]

Rogues job is usually to be unseen. Carrying a torch in pitch darkness will usually give away your scouting.

Don't underestimate the number of players that aren't onboard with this, Horwath.

One thing I learned from the other discussions on scouts-with-lights is that what I consider absolutely fundamental and completely self-explanatory (don't carry a light when sneaking in darkness) is far from a given to certain people.

Their view is utterly alien to me ("that's not in the rules"), but still, there it is.