Reserve Training, better than Novice Power when Multiclassing?

[Doctor Proctor]

You quite sure?
Under level advancement, you choose feats before powers.
So when you take the feat, you don't yet have any powers of that level.

Now, the question is, when it comes time to choose a power, do you count as having that power or not?

Huh? I think you're reading something into it that's not there. If you take this power at level 11, then it means that you pick a power of your level or lower. So you could say, take a level 7 power as part of the feat, and then swap it with the level 7 power you currently have during a short rest.

Also, I'm not sure if this would apply to Paragon Path powers. Those are supposed to be powers that you're stuck with, and normally can't retrain to something better...so letting this power make a backdoor substitution for you would sort of defeat the purpose.

 

[jgsugden]

If you want to do a utility version of this feat, I say go ahead. Word it so that:

1.) You pick the tuility to be gained when you pick the feat.
2.) To gain the utility you must sacrifice access to an at-will utility, an encounter utility or an unused daily utility of equal or higher level.
3.) The utility to be gained must be from your primary class.
4.) You can't gain the utility if you already possess it.

That should work.

I think Reserve Training is a very solid feat. It allows you to pick a highly specialized utility power and make use of it, even if it isn't something you can use in every combat. As an example, I might use this feat to make sure I had access to a radiant power in a campaign where I didn't expect to see much undead, but the undead I do expect to see in those rare circumstances are nasty (see LotR). It is a method of keeping odd-ball powers relevant, which I really like to see.

I am playing a 4th level dwarven invoker, and this feat is definitely scheduled for him to take at 12th or 14th level. My 8th level human paladin way also take this feat at 11th level if we ever play that game again.

 

[Danceofmasks]

Huh? I think you're reading something into it that's not there. If you take this power at level 11, then it means that you pick a power of your level or lower. So you could say, take a level 7 power as part of the feat, and then swap it with the level 7 power you currently have during a short rest.

Also, I'm not sure if this would apply to Paragon Path powers. Those are supposed to be powers that you're stuck with, and normally can't retrain to something better...so letting this power make a backdoor substitution for you would sort of defeat the purpose.

*sigh* ... look, I rarely do this, 'cos I often make the mistake of assuming others can see protocol crawl off of pages like I can.
So lemme explain step by step.

A character has "griffon's wrath" as his level 7 encounter power.
He decides to take reserve training at level 12.
Chooses an encounter 7 power ... "come and get it"
Right there and then, he could decide to retrain his normal level 7 choice to also be "come and get it"
Why can't he then trade "all bets are off (pit fighter 11)" for "come and get it" after a short rest?

Or alternatively ... he could hit level 13, and choose "come and get it" instead of a normal level 13 power, and use the feat (after short rest) to switch out "griffon's wrath" for "come and get it"

Now, if "a power you don't already have" is a prerequisite for the feat, he'll lose access to the feat ... but it isn't.

It's convoluted, likely a loophole, and IMO needs errata, plus GMs should rule against it anyhow, but it sure looks like it works by RAW.

 

[aurance]

*sigh* ... look, I rarely do this, 'cos I often make the mistake of assuming others can see protocol crawl off of pages like I can.
So lemme explain step by step.

A character has "griffon's wrath" as his level 7 encounter power.
He decides to take reserve training at level 12.
Chooses an encounter 7 power ... "come and get it"
Right there and then, he could decide to retrain his normal level 7 choice to also be "come and get it"
Why can't he then trade "all bets are off (pit fighter 11)" for "come and get it" after a short rest?

Or alternatively ... he could hit level 13, and choose "come and get it" instead of a normal level 13 power, and use the feat (after short rest) to switch out "griffon's wrath" for "come and get it"

Now, if "a power you don't already have" is a prerequisite for the feat, he'll lose access to the feat ... but it isn't.

It's convoluted, likely a loophole, and IMO needs errata, plus GMs should rule against it anyhow, but it sure looks like it works by RAW.

No, it's no loophole. The general rule is "You can take each power only once" (PHB p.27). There's nothing in the feat's description or the retraining rules to contradict this. In essence, in your quoted post, "Right there and then, he could decide to retrain his normal level 7 choice to also be 'come and get it'" is illegal. Also, if you could immediately retrain for a double copy of a power, the feat text "...and one that you don’t already have" would be meaningless.

 

[Danceofmasks]

Oh?
And I suppose you also think you can't choose the same power for dilettante and pact initiate?

Reserve maneuver doesn't actually give you the chosen power as one of the powers you know.

 

[Doctor Proctor]

Oh?
And I suppose you also think you can't choose the same power for dilettante and pact initiate?

Reserve maneuver doesn't actually give you the chosen power as one of the powers you know.

True, but when you take Sweeping Blow as your reserve power, then retrain Rain of Blows to Sweeping Blow and then use Reserve Training to swap Come and Get It for Sweeping you have two instances of the same power, which is against the rules. So while, you could use some shenanigans to end up with a power in Reserve Training that you have on your character, you get no benefit from it because you can't switch another power because it would go up against the "can't have multiple copies of the same power" rule.

 

[Danceofmasks]

Ah, but there is no "you can't have multiple copies" rule.
You can't take a power multiple times, nor can you choose the same power more than once, but if you simply gain the use of ...

It's like the alcohol loophole (here in australia anyway).
17 year-old can't buy alcohol, but if given it .. they can drink it.

 

[aurance]

Oh?
And I suppose you also think you can't choose the same power for dilettante and pact initiate?

Reserve maneuver doesn't actually give you the chosen power as one of the powers you know.

Since I believe this falls under the "You can take each power only once" rule, no, I don't think you can choose the same power for dilettante and pact initiate.

I'm curious how you would define "powers you know." I define it as gaining the use of it through any intrinsic character means, whether through race, feats or class.

 

[Wepwawet]

OMG!
4E will train so many good lawyers!!!
I'm everytime seeing people reading too much into the rules text.
(totally off-topic, sorry)

 

[DracoSuave]

Ah, but there is no "you can't have multiple copies" rule.
You can't take a power multiple times, nor can you choose the same power more than once, but if you simply gain the use of ...

'You can take each power only once.'

It does not say 'choose' each power only once. It says 'take' without regard to the source or manner of each power you gain.

If you somehow have the same power handed to you through two non-choice related means, you can only -take- one of them.

So, yeah. There IS a no multiple copies rule. And yes, it -has- been applied to Dilletante, Pact Initiate, et al.


Also, your reserve maneuver power must be 'one that you do not already have.' As soon as you learn its power through another means, the reserve maneuver power no longer qualifies as 'one that you do not already have' and therefore while you still have the feat, you don't have the ability to swap it in, because the power no longer qualifies as legal for the feat. Fortunately, you can swap the reserve maneuver power every time you level without using your retraining for that level up.


Lastly, you -can- use it to swap out a PP encounter attack power. It does not care what the source of that power was, it just replaces any encounter power higher than your reserve power. However, that would mean that your reserve power -must- be a level 7 encounter power or lower in order for this to work. (PP encounter powers are level 11)