Resisting saving throws while unconscious

[Geoff Watson]

I can think of at least a few ways when the subject is awake. What does he do while asleep? "He used an incredible snore to combat the blast!" Please.

Maybe the fireball hit the wrong side of the bed, or something. The chance of a successful save is low, even with crappy fireballs and a powerful resistance item.
Is it totally impossible for the fireball not to have maximum effect just by luck?

Geoff.

PS: Maybe he heard you chanting (Listen Check DC 0, with a penalty for being asleep) and woke up in time to dodge?

 

[Nareau]

OF course if you really want to get hairy then how does an unconscious guy always know not to resist against those cure lights from his party

Actually, the user only gets a save vs. [harmless] spells if he wishes it:

(Harmless): The spell is usually beneficial, not harmful, but a targeted creature can attempt a saving throw if it wishes.

Wishing for something connotes an act of will. So that means the default is "no saving throw vs. harmless spells while unconscious".

At least, that's how I read it.

 

[Artoomis]

Some quotes from the SRD:

Unconscious
Knocked out and helpless

Helpless
Bound, held, sleeping, paralyzed, or unconscious characters are helpless. Enemies can make advantageous attacks against helpless characters, or even deliver a usually lethal coup de grace.
A melee attack against a helpless character is at a +4 bonus on the attack roll (equivalent to attacking a prone target). A ranged attack gets no special bonus. A helpless defender can't use any Dexterity bonus to AC. In fact, his Dexterity score is treated as if it were 0 and his Dexterity modifier to AC was -5 (and a rogue can sneak attack him).

DEX 0 means that the character cannot move at all. He stands motionless, rigid, and helpless.

Any creature that can move has at least 1 point of Dexterity.
A creature with no Dexterity score can't move. If it can act, it applies its Intelligence modifier to initiative checks instead of a Dexterity modifier. The creature fails all Reflex saves and Dexterity checks.

Reflex:
These saves test a combatant's ability to dodge attacks. Apply a combatant's Dexterity modifier to a combatant's Reflex saving throws.

As with a Reflex save for any creature, a character must have room to move in order to evade. A bound character or one in a completely restrictive area (crawling through a 2 1/2-foot-wide shaft, for example) cannot use evasion."

Taken together, the conclusion seems inescapable. No reflex save when bound, held, sleeping, paralyzed, or unconscious .

You can make interesting, hyper-technical arguments over why a reflex save should be allowed, but it's a bit silly given all the above.

 

[Artoomis]

Of course, the above comments do not apply to Fortitude or Willpower saves.

Those can get tricky. Think about teleport, for example. Can you teleport your sleeping ally - is he willing? Can he be willing when he's asleep? Can he be unwilling when he's asleep?

 

[Cloudgatherer]

Maybe the fireball hit the wrong side of the bed, or something. The chance of a successful save is low, even with crappy fireballs and a powerful resistance item.
Is it totally impossible for the fireball not to have maximum effect just by luck?

There is no save. He's asleep! Yes, it is impossible for the fireball to not have maximum effect. Why? There is no roll. No roll means no chance.

PS: Maybe he heard you chanting (Listen Check DC 0, with a penalty for being asleep) and woke up in time to dodge?

This is an *entirely* different issue. The subject would no longer be asleep at this point so this doesn't belong in this thread.

 

[diaglo]

doesn't sleep fall under the helpless victim category?

which means coup de grace material.

do you give them a dex bonus/ penalty and therefore let them avoid a coup de grace?

 

[Artoomis]

doesn't sleep fall under the helpless victim category?

which means coup de grace material.

do you give them a dex bonus/ penalty and therefore let them avoid a coup de grace?

Yes, sleeping = helpless. See my earlier post for some quoted material on this.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Any creature that can move has at least 1 point of Dexterity.
A creature with no Dexterity score can't move. If it can act, it applies its Intelligence modifier to initiative checks instead of a Dexterity modifier. The creature fails all Reflex saves and Dexterity checks.

Taken together, the conclusion seems inescapable.

Well, while I'm obviously in the "no save" camp, I will point out something about the above quote.

"A creature with no Dexterity score" is different to a creature with 0 Dexterity. This is specifically stated in the rules. And unfortunately, the above quote doesn't draw a direct connection between "can't move" and "fails all Reflex saves". Those are both a feature of having no Dexterity score, but one does not by that section of the rules automatically imply the other.

However, I still agree that the sum of the quotes you provided add up to "No Save".

-Hyp.

 

[diaglo]

sorry i missed your earlier post, but i don't read long posts or quotes.

 

[Hypersmurf]

... but i don't read long posts or quotes.

How do you expect to contribute intelligently to a debate if you ignore half of what's said because they used too many words?

How do you contribute to a Rules debate if you won't read where someone quotes the relevant rules?

-Hyp.