D&D 5E Respect Mah Authoritah: Thoughts on DM and Player Authority in 5e

[pemerton]

that there cannot by definition be a winner without at least one loser.

This seems wrong. I've played Forbidden Island and won (so there was no loser). And have played and lost (so there was no winner).

 

[prabe]

This seems wrong. I've played Forbidden Island and won (so there was no loser). And have played and lost (so there was no winner).

Isn't Forbidden Island a cooperative game? Most of the boardgaming I've done in the past decade plus has been co-op, and we've generally thought of it as us against the game or us against the board. So we might come away from a game of Eldritch Horror or Pandemic saying that the game had kicked our ass.

 

[Ovinomancer]

My point is that the authors find it meaningful for to say to their audience of new rpgers that it is about having particular goals, but not about winning and losing
. It helps them orient new players to the specificity of playing an RPG as opposed to another kind of game

Are you saying that the excerpt you quoted is a bad example of how RPG game should introduce this idea you have? That it's doing the bad thing of expressly talking about how you win and lose that (CoC) RPG? Again, I haven't seen any evidence anywhere that this harms CoC as an RPG so what are you citing that shows that this passage is harmful and bad to the health of RPGs?

Or have I misunderstood (wildly) and you're saying this excerpt is an example of good explanation of how winning and losing isn't a part of RPGs despite it very clearly saying so?

 

[Ovinomancer]

I disagree. Non-zero-sum goal achievements certainly exist, but to call them "win conditions" runs aground on the concept (which IMO is true) that there cannot by definition be a winner without at least one loser.

If everybody wins, nobody does: it's a tie. Ditto if everybody loses.

There a very much cooperative games where everyone wins or loses together, and there's no person who's on the opposite end of this, so I find the premise you're operating under to be badly, and trivially, flawed.

You can't win - or lose - a game that has no definable end point, mostly because it's only at or after that end point when winners and-or losers can be declared.

D&D games have end points. They are finite. Every instance of a D&D game comes to an end. This is, again, swapping in the abstract concept of D&D as a game rather than addressing the fact that we don't play that game, we play a realized, finite instance of that game.

Or because all active win conditions have been failed e.g. a game-ending TPK.

And if all active win conditions are abandoned e.g. the game simply runs out of steam or 3/4 of the players suddenly move out of town then that game has neither winners nor losers. An analogy here would be a baseball game that gets through 4 innings and then gets rained out - play occurred but no winner or loser could be declared because the game didn't reach a rules-definable end point.

You don't have to have a rules definable end point -- this is an unsupported argument that's being advanced by insistence alone. The win condition for at least someone in that game had to be to complete something that was not completed, so that's a loss of that win condition. That it's understandable, and the cause is from outside the game doesn't change that win conditions went unfulfilled. Again, you can sub in "goal" for "win condition" because they are synonyms in this regard.

 

[Manbearcat]

TO EVERYONE DISAGREEING WITH THE PREMISE THAT WIN CONS EXIST IN TTRPGS

I want to throw several things at you so we can collectively evaluate your/our thinking on this. Ready? Go:

1) My Life With Master - At the final conflict with the Master, your Minion has attained Love (a currency that accrues, or doesn't, in the course of play; through the series of conflicts that make up the game, you've established relationships with the Townsfolk that have effectively awakened your character and allowed them to surmount their worse inclinations/disposition) greater than your combined Fear + Weariness (same). Maybe other PCs haven't maybe they all have? Maybe you're the only Minion that has done this?

Now the Endgame conflict with the Master is enabled and we cut right to the action to find out if you depose/kill the Master/Mistress or not. Anyone whose Love > Fear + Weariness is in the conflict. This_is_not_easy.

Is getting to this endgame conflict a Win Con?

Is getting to it and then defeating the Master/Mistress a Win Con?

2) D&D 4e - You've authored a Major Quest for your character in the Heroic Tier of play; "Open the Gates of Man and Watch the Horde Pass Freely Through." It turns out that, in the course of the Heroic Tier of play, we all discover that this isn't a tangible thing. Its intangible. At the end of the Heroic Tier, you've won enough conflicts to have many allies in the Points of Light setting at your back when you confront "The Keeper." This is an upleveled (Level +3) Social Skill Challenge and you have to stake all the hearts and minds that you've won in order to convince The Keeper. Your Skill Challenge is a success. You open the heart of The Keeper who in turn opens the Gates of Man. The last scene of the Heroic Tier is watching the Horde pass freely through the gates.

Quest completed. If the group plays Paragon Tier (they may not...this may be a wrap), it starts from here.

If that's a wrap, Win Con?

If that's not a wrap and this Major Quest profoundly shapes Paragon Tier play (while of course establishing a significant amount about the setting and your character), Win Con?

Win Con either way?

3) Aliens RPG - You're a Scientist for Weyland-Yutani. Below is your Agenda.f

PERSONAL AGENDA: That Weyland-Yutani inspection team won’t be so snooty if you can leapfrog them and get an alien to the Company first. You just need to get a live specimen and get off LV-426 alive. Who will be laughing then?

You successfully commander the evac and get a live specimen and yourself off LV-426. The final scene is you entering cryostasis as The Mother plots the course for your destination.

Win Con?

4) Dogs in the Vineyard - Your backstory initiation scene (the situation is player-authored and the GM plays the antagonism/obstacle) involved you getting picked on (again) and your goal for the scene is "I won't let my temper get the best of me so that I end up beating yet another initiate into an inch of their life." You fail and therefore gain the 1d6 Trait "I can't lick this awful temper." When you deploy it in conflicts its apt to help you when you can use it, but its certainly a much better chance to earn you Fallout than a d8 or d10.

In the course of play, you lose some conflicts and therefore take Fallout. You throttle back that d6 Trait to a d4 which makes it a significantly complicating feature of your life. When you deploy it, it will help you because you've got an increased dice pool, but you're more apt to get Fallout (negative affects to your character that affect them thematically and their attendant PC build structure). Now your Temper is really causing you problems.

In a conflict in a Town, you're able to use that Trait in a social conflict, not escalate to violence, and win the social conflict (you get what you want without having to go to fists/knives/guns). Between Towns is Reflection. That Trait goes back to d6 because it helped you.

Rince, repeat in another Town. Now its a d8 (a major asset).

Win Con? No? Ok...

Rince, repeat another Town. Now its a d10.

You've mastered your temper and its an asset to your life as a Dog.

Win Con now?

5) Dungeon World - Its the End of Session move, you've got the following Alignment; Save an innocent from the cruelties of man. You've got a Bond with your Wizard companion; I'll show Mork that kindness pays off. You rescue a fox cub who was down a well project that was abandoned by prospectors. The cub is near death due to exposure and dehydration, etc. You win the conflict to get it out of the well and then you win the conflict to restore its vitality. You now have a Fox cub Cohort (with some kind of move/Skill that helps you due to love). You also learn something new and interesting about the world; There is a prospecting group that is ravaging the countryside and throwing salt-of-the-earth folk off their land for a pittance of a return (and this triggers a new Bond or Alignment statement).

You mark xp for Alignment and Bond and Learn Something New About the World at End of Session. Mork's player changes their alignment from Neutral to Good.

Win Con?

Maybe you level up from those 3 exactly. Win Con?

6) Blades in the Dark - You're possessed by your friend's Demon Rival due to a Consequence of the Score prior. This only manifests intermittently (a Fortune Roll based on the Magnitude of the Demon; 3d6 so if a 6 shows up when you make an Action Roll, the GM is taking over and afflicting a Desperate Consequence on the Crew).

The Demon manifests horrifically in the subsequent Occult Score; a ritual to adjure the Demon. Its likely to kill your friend (its Rival). You determine that the only way to save your friend is to throw yourself into the Spirit Well that is being used as the nexus for the ritual (thereby destroying both you, your spirit, and the Demon). You succeed at the Action Roll.

You cast your character into the spirit well after you momentarily regain your normal visage from the Demon in order to glance at your friends with a smile of "its ok...I've got this." You're over the lip and gone...the Demon with you.

Basically like The Exorcist.

You're making a new character or you're changing one of the Crew's Cohorts to become a full fledged PC.

Win Con?

 

[FrogReaver]

I disagree. Non-zero-sum goal achievements certainly exist, but to call them "win conditions" runs aground on the concept (which IMO is true) that there cannot by definition be a winner without at least one loser.

A relatively well known game that always has either a winner or a loser but never both is solitaire.

I think competitive games require both a winner and a loser, but not all games in general.

 

[prabe]

TO EVERYONE DISAGREEING WITH THE PREMISE THAT WIN CONS EXIST IN TTRPGS

I want to throw several things at you so we can collectively evaluate your/our thinking on this. Ready? Go:

Sure. Leaving aside that I haven't played most of these games ...

1) My Life With Master

Now the Endgame conflict with the Master is enabled and we cut right to the action to find out if you depose/kill the Master/Mistress or not. Anyone whose Love > Fear + Weariness is in the conflict. This_is_not_easy.

Is getting to this endgame conflict a Win Con?

Is getting to it and then defeating the Master/Mistress a Win Con?

No, and no.

2) D&D 4e

Quest completed. If the group plays Paragon Tier (they may not...this may be a wrap), it starts from here.

If that's a wrap, Win Con?

If that's not a wrap and this Major Quest profoundly shapes Paragon Tier play (while of course establishing a significant amount about the setting and your character), Win Con?

Win Con either way?

No, no, and no.

3) Aliens RPG

You successfully commander the evac and get a live specimen and yourself off LV-426. The final scene is you entering cryostasis as The Mother plots the course for your destination.

Win Con?

No.

(leaving aside that the Xenomorph is going to rip everyone apart as they descend into a deathspiral of panic)

4) Dogs in the Vineyard

In a conflict in a Town, you're able to use that Trait in a social conflict, not escalate to violence, and win the social conflict (you get what you want without having to go to fists/knives/guns). Between Towns is Reflection. That Trait goes back to d6 because it helped you.

Rince, repeat in another Town. Now its a d8 (a major asset).

Win Con? No? Ok...

Rince, repeat another Town. Now its a d10.

You've mastered your temper and its an asset to your life as a Dog.

Win Con now?

Nope. None of them.

5) Dungeon World

You mark xp for Alignment and Bond and Learn Something New About the World at End of Session. Mork's player changes their alignment from Neutral to Good.

Win Con?

Maybe you level up from those 3 exactly. Win Con?

No and no.

6) Blades in the Dark

You cast your character into the spirit well after you momentarily regain your normal visage from the Demon in order to glance at your friends with a smile of "its ok...I've got this." You're over the lip and gone...the Demon with you.

Basically like The Exorcist.

You're making a new character or you're changing one of the Crew's Cohorts to become a full fledged PC.

Win Con?

Nope. Not even a little.

What all of these bear more resemblance to than winning or losing anything is finishing something. Satisfying a completion urge. They are--each and everyone--more like finishing a story (or maybe a chapter) as a reader or as a writer, than like winning (or plausibly losing--some of the end states are ambiguous and I could see being seen either way).

Finishing a story has never, ever felt like winning to me. Never as a reader, and not as a writer. Finishing a song in the MIDI space (or getting one all the way together as part of a band, back when the rocks were still cooling) never felt like winning.

Now, clearly, my point of view on this is ... probably deeply alien to you, and to some of the other posters still bothering with this thread. I'm ... fine with that.

 

[FrogReaver]

TO EVERYONE DISAGREEING WITH THE PREMISE THAT WIN CONS EXIST IN TTRPGS

I want to throw several things at you so we can collectively evaluate your/our thinking on this. Ready? Go:

1) My Life With Master - At the final conflict with the Master, your Minion has attained Love (a currency that accrues, or doesn't, in the course of play; through the series of conflicts that make up the game, you've established relationships with the Townsfolk that have effectively awakened your character and allowed them to surmount their worse inclinations/disposition) greater than your combined Fear + Weariness (same). Maybe other PCs haven't maybe they all have? Maybe you're the only Minion that has done this?

Now the Endgame conflict with the Master is enabled and we cut right to the action to find out if you depose/kill the Master/Mistress or not. Anyone whose Love > Fear + Weariness is in the conflict. This_is_not_easy.

Is getting to this endgame conflict a Win Con?

Is getting to it and then defeating the Master/Mistress a Win Con?

Without more details on the game I cannot say. Does the game itself define that as a way to win the game?

2) D&D 4e - You've authored a Major Quest for your character in the Heroic Tier of play; "Open the Gates of Man and Watch the Horde Pass Freely Through." It turns out that, in the course of the Heroic Tier of play, we all discover that this isn't a tangible thing. Its intangible. At the end of the Heroic Tier, you've won enough conflicts to have many allies in the Points of Light setting at your back when you confront "The Keeper." This is an upleveled (Level +3) Social Skill Challenge and you have to stake all the hearts and minds that you've won in order to convince The Keeper. Your Skill Challenge is a success. You open the heart of The Keeper who in turn opens the Gates of Man. The last scene of the Heroic Tier is watching the Horde pass freely through the gates.

Quest completed. If the group plays Paragon Tier (they may not...this may be a wrap), it starts from here.

If that's a wrap, Win Con?

If that's not a wrap and this Major Quest profoundly shapes Paragon Tier play (while of course establishing a significant amount about the setting and your character), Win Con?

Win Con either way?

Successfully completing a goal and winning the game aren't the same thing.

3) Aliens RPG - You're a Scientist for Weyland-Yutani. Below is your Agenda.f

PERSONAL AGENDA: That Weyland-Yutani inspection team won’t be so snooty if you can leapfrog them and get an alien to the Company first. You just need to get a live specimen and get off LV-426 alive. Who will be laughing then?

You successfully commander the evac and get a live specimen and yourself off LV-426. The final scene is you entering cryostasis as The Mother plots the course for your destination.

Win Con?

Not enough information. Does the game itself define that as a way to win the game? Does the game grant the authority to players to define a way to win the game.

4) Dogs in the Vineyard - Your backstory initiation scene (the situation is player-authored and the GM plays the antagonism/obstacle) involved you getting picked on (again) and your goal for the scene is "I won't let my temper get the best of me so that I end up beating yet another initiate into an inch of their life." You fail and therefore gain the 1d6 Trait "I can't lick this awful temper." When you deploy it in conflicts its apt to help you when you can use it, but its certainly a much better chance to earn you Fallout than a d8 or d10.

In the course of play, you lose some conflicts and therefore take Fallout. You throttle back that d6 Trait to a d4 which makes it a significantly complicating feature of your life. When you deploy it, it will help you because you've got an increased dice pool, but you're more apt to get Fallout (negative affects to your character that affect them thematically and their attendant PC build structure). Now your Temper is really causing you problems.

In a conflict in a Town, you're able to use that Trait in a social conflict, not escalate to violence, and win the social conflict (you get what you want without having to go to fists/knives/guns). Between Towns is Reflection. That Trait goes back to d6 because it helped you.

Rince, repeat in another Town. Now its a d8 (a major asset).

Win Con? No? Ok...

Rince, repeat another Town. Now its a d10.

You've mastered your temper and its an asset to your life as a Dog.

Win Con now?

That sounds like you were successful at something beneficial to you - not that you won anything. Though I'm not familiar with the game so cannot say for sure.

5) Dungeon World - Its the End of Session move, you've got the following Alignment; Save an innocent from the cruelties of man. You've got a Bond with your Wizard companion; I'll show Mork that kindness pays off. You rescue a fox cub who was down a well project that was abandoned by prospectors. The cub is near death due to exposure and dehydration, etc. You win the conflict to get it out of the well and then you win the conflict to restore its vitality. You now have a Fox cub Cohort (with some kind of move/Skill that helps you due to love). You also learn something new and interesting about the world; There is a prospecting group that is ravaging the countryside and throwing salt-of-the-earth folk off their land for a pittance of a return (and this triggers a new Bond or Alignment statement).

You mark xp for Alignment and Bond and Learn Something New About the World at End of Session. Mork's player changes their alignment from Neutral to Good.

Win Con?

Maybe you level up from those 3 exactly. Win Con?

Leveling up on it's own doesn't mean you won - so no.

6) Blades in the Dark - You're possessed by your friend's Demon Rival due to a Consequence of the Score prior. This only manifests intermittently (a Fortune Roll based on the Magnitude of the Demon; 3d6 so if a 6 shows up when you make an Action Roll, the GM is taking over and afflicting a Desperate Consequence on the Crew).

The Demon manifests horrifically in the subsequent Occult Score; a ritual to adjure the Demon. Its likely to kill your friend (its Rival). You determine that the only way to save your friend is to throw yourself into the Spirit Well that is being used as the nexus for the ritual (thereby destroying both you, your spirit, and the Demon). You succeed at the Action Roll.

You cast your character into the spirit well after you momentarily regain your normal visage from the Demon in order to glance at your friends with a smile of "its ok...I've got this." You're over the lip and gone...the Demon with you.

Basically like The Exorcist.

You're making a new character or you're changing one of the Crew's Cohorts to become a full fledged PC.

Win Con?

The game's still going on as evidenced by your last statement. If the game continues then no one has won it yet.

I don't understand why everyone agreeing with you desires to conflate winning a game with successfully completing a goal.

 

[Aldarc]

My point is that the authors find it meaningful for to say to their audience of new rpgers that it is about having particular goals, but not about winning and losing
. It helps them orient new players to the specificity of playing an RPG as opposed to another kind of game

Again, this whole "goals" bit while saying that it's "not about winning and losing" bit seems like semantics, because the second paragraph of the CoC segment you posted explicitly talks about the players winning and losing:

Winning in such a situation depends on whether the investigators succeed in their goal, and losing is what happens if they fail to achieve it (they may be able to try again later).

Should we all pretend that CoC doesn't say the above? It's pretty clear to me, IMHO, that CoC isn't pretending that TTRPGs aren't magically different that winning and losing conditions aren't part of how these games are played.

 

[Ovinomancer]

@prabe,

Can you redo that analysis of @Manbearcat's post using the term "goal" instead of "win condition?" Would your examples change? If so, what's the difference in that you see between completing a goal and winning a goal? Is this just a semantics issue?