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D&D 5E Respect Mah Authoritah: Thoughts on DM and Player Authority in 5e

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
It definitely does feel alien to me.

So a couple things...and I hate to do this...but...

1) The dictionary definition of "win" is "be successful in a conflict, contest, or endeavor." There is no clause appended to the end of that stipulating "terminating any future conflicts, contests, or endeavors."

2) I come from a deeply athletic background and a hard childhood. The merger of those two things created a cognitive space that is deeply focused on RIGHT NOW. I set small goals and I work intensely to complete them, desperately trying to not let "the long view" arrest my focus on, and satisfaction from "right now." "Stacking" is a term you see often these days. That has been used in athletics and martial arts forever. You have a conflict, contest, or endeavor before you. You defeat it. You stack the next victory on top of that one and you keep stacking.

One rep at a time, one play at a time, one contest at a time, etc etc. Each of these are enormously consequential. A break in the chain (physically like an actual injury setback or mentally/emotionally like a reorienting of my self-belief in a bad way) is a terrible thing. Don't let it happen. Win > Stack > Rinse/Repeat. Don't look into the future. Don't focus on things you can't control.

I have to wonder how much deeply different environmental inputs meeting different nature is what we're haggling over here.
Quite a bit, probably, as what you're calling wins I see as goals. Different term, with a different and more useful meaning in this case: winning is an end state, achieving goals is something done en route to that end state if it exists.
3) There is an enormous amount of advanced metrics right now about "micro-wins." For American Football (for instance), "play wins" (4 or more yards in a non-3rd-and-long situation or achieving the line to gain for a 1st down or achieving the goal-line for a TD) are taking over the field of analytics because they're showing themselves to be an extremely predictable and stable metric for evaluating offense and defense production.
I'm coming to dislike advanced metrics in sports more and more as time goes on, particularly in hockey. High-level players are overcoached as it is, far too often stifling the talent and creativity that made them good in the first place in favour of playing to some "system" or other. Analytics just gives the coaches more excuses to overcoach.
 

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Lanefan

Victoria Rules
I decide to suffer for an hour (whatever the activity is) in order to increase my mental fitness. I achieve it. I win.

I have a brutal workout that I've yet to complete in 7 minutes. I finally beat 7 minutes. I win.

I've never shot below an 80 on a Golf Course. I get a 79. I win.

I get tapped by this same guy's ridiculous choke game over and over and over. Get tapped...just defend the choke variations he puts on me. I get kimura'd and I tap. But I successfully defend a series of 3 chokes. I win.
All four of these are goal achievements, sure, but none are wins and the last is in fact a loss as you tapped out. The golf example would be a win, loss, or tie only if you were playing against at least one other person, and after the round compared scores.

I guess what I'm saying is that while people (including me sometimes) commonly use "win" in examples like these, what they really mean is "goal achievement". It's a faulty use of the term.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
Yes, you seem to be talking about winning a game.
Of course we're talking abut winning a game! That's what this whole sub-thread is circling around: whether the game of D&D can be won or not; and why the rulebooks of numerous editions take the time to point out that it cannot.
At no point has @Manbearcat, who introduced "win conditions" and clearly defined them when he did, been talking only about winning an entire game. You've staked out a completely different approach and are trying to insist that your approach is what was meant all along -- it isn't.
All the talk of sub-wins only serves to muddy discussion around the overarching question, which is: can you win D&D?
 


FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
Quite a bit, probably, as what you're calling wins I see as goals. Different term, with a different and more useful meaning in this case: winning is an end state, achieving goals is something done en route to that end state if it exists.

I'm coming to dislike advanced metrics in sports more and more as time goes on, particularly in hockey. High-level players are overcoached as it is, far too often stifling the talent and creativity that made them good in the first place in favour of playing to some "system" or other. Analytics just gives the coaches more excuses to overcoach.
Advanced metrics do good telling what player is better in a particular system vs other particular systems. But they don’t tell you which system is better. They don’t often take into account that the opponent may switch systems mid game.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
How is winning an end state? If I win a trick in bridge, that doesn't necessarily end the hand, or the rubber.
Indeed, but IME the term there is to "take" a trick; and the end-result effect is the same as scoring a goal in a hockey game - you've helped your side toward a win but haven't won anything yet.
If I win an "exchange" (I'm not sure if this is the right technical term) in a fighting sport like boxing or karate, that doesn't necessarily end the bout.
Same idea, in that while coming out best in an exchange helps you toward a win, you still haven't won yet. (unless in the exchange you knock your opponent out, of course!)
 


Xetheral

Three-Headed Sirrush
I must not be understanding the difference, except that one is explicitly laid out -- the GM tells you these things are available -- and the latter is just left unsaid -- you pick something, whatever.
The difference is table expectations: if, for a given strategic decision, one is expected to pick from those options laid out by the GM (obligating the PCs to follow the GM's lead on campaign direction), then that decision would be non-sandboxy and lower the campaign's sandbox percentage. If instead the expectation is that it's ok for the PCs to make any strategic choice they want (obligating the DM to follow the PCs' lead on campaign direction), then that decision would be sandboxy and increase the campaign's sandbox percentage. (Campaigns run in a style where picking from a laid out list or making an open-ended decision is not a valid dichotomy for how IC strategic decisions are made simply wouldn't fall anywhere on the spectrum I've specified.)

Except, I've seen GMs claim even in plotted games that the players could just ignore the list and do whatever, and I don't know how that would be scored. There was a poster in this thread arguing that the WotC APs aren't railroads for precisely this reason -- the players could just abandon things and do something off script entirely. It would seem that this might be a hole in the conception?
That's why I'm focusing on campaigns rather than modules/APs/systems. Any given table running a module can decide how often to expect the PCs to follow the module, vs how often to expect the GM to adapt/expand the module's setting to accomodate whatever the PCs decide to do.

For example, a table could use a module and decide that when making top-level strategic decisions on what to do, the players are expected to choose to engage with the module's content. But that same table could simultaneously expect the GM to adapt to unorthodox ways to tackle the content in the book, including (e.g.) travelling off the module map to go on a diplomatic tour to raising a multinational army. That campaign would have a much higher sandbox percentage than a campaign where the table instead expects the players to not only choose to engage with the module's content, but also to stick to one of the expected paths through that content. Conversely, it would have a lower sandbox percentage than a campaign where the GM is expected to follow the players even if the players decide to ignore the module's content entirely.

Overall, I don't really see this construction as having a lot of merit outside of the endpoints -- the "spread" part of the spectrum seems very, very messy. The endpoints seems like not great fun either -- either CYOA book style play or complete lack of prompts at all. Most games I'm familiar with that are sandboxes still have hooks.
I'm cool with discussions on, and disagreements about, the spectrum's merits as an analytical/discussion tool. I'm just trying to show, against argument to the contrary, that the sandbox spectrum exists and has utility.

And sure, the middle of the spectrum is messy. It's definitely too messy (i.e. imprescise) to make it a useful large-scale cataloging tool, but I think it's still useful for comparing a small number of campaigns to each other (if all such campaigns are of a type that fits on the spectrum, of course). If there happens to be disagreement about which of two campaigns has a higher sandbox percentage, then the further analysis provoked by trying to place the campaigns on the spectrum will itself likely be illuminating, showing either disagreement about what the table expectations are for a given campaign, conceptual differences about what counts as an open-ended decision, or how/whether to weight certain types of decisions over others. In other words, I think the spectrum is useful despite its messiness/imprecision.
 

Xetheral

Three-Headed Sirrush
@Xetheral, what @Ovinomancer has said is basically true for me. I don't really understand what your spectrum is a spectrum of. I could try and offer some possible interpretations which would need to use the concepts of background and situational authority; I realise that you might think this is begging the question in my favour.

In referring to the provision of/availability of options, you seem to be talking about the process of establishing situations. In both a sandbox and a liner game, these result from pre-authored backstory. But in a sandbox the players engage with that backstory in a particular way to "activate" the situations latent in the backstory; whereas in linear play the GM presents the backstory and particular pre-authored situations "all at once", as it were.

So the only spectrum I can see in the neighbourhood is the spectrum of occasions in which situation is generated via the sandbox-type approach as opposed to the linear-type approach. I personally don't see how this is a spectrum in any way beyond just a count of the proportions of, or ratio of, such instances, but that is perhaps a secondary matter.
Unless I'm misunderstanding what you mean, I don't consider the sandbox spectrum I've specified to be about "establishing situations". It's about what the table expectations are for how the party decides to answer the (implicit or explicit) strategic question: "what do you do next?" and how often the answer is constrained to options laid out by the GM vs how often the question is open-ended. Specifically, it's a spectrum of campaigns, ordered from always constrained to a list of laid out options to never constrained to laid out options. Does that help?

From my perspective you seem to looking at my spectrum through your preferred analytical framework, causing you to add in unnecessary external definitions that are complicating the picture. For example, you note that "in a sandbox the players engage with that backstory in a particular way to 'activate' the situations latent in the backstory" but that description isn't part of how I've specified the spectrum, so I don't see how it's relevant. (Also, I disagree that your description describes all sandboxes. It arguably describes pre-authored, location-based sandboxes, but that's only one sub-type of sandbox.)
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
In my case they all would change, as completing a goal is not necessarily an end state but winning is.
Ah, so, you didn't engage win condition, you changed it to end state and engaged that, and would have had a different answer for goals. So it was a semantics argument for you, mostly because you've imported definitional changes. I thought this might be what is going on -- people fighting over the term rather than the concept that was presented with it.
 

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