D&D 5E Respect Mah Authoritah: Thoughts on DM and Player Authority in 5e

[Haffrung]

Ah, so immersion is not what you care about at all! Cool. Because, in a real fight, a combatant is very much paying attention to all of the things that the stats summarize and that you're not thinking of in your cool cinematic playthrough in your head. What you want isn't immersion, it's entertaining moments to visualize like a movie. Why this gets labelled as immersion, I'm not sure, it's just run-of-the-mill escapism.

Immersion is one of those terms that seems to mean very different things to different people. To me, it means the real world dissolving and the game world taking its place. And in my game worlds, combat with nameless horrors is not a cooly deliberative endeavour. It’s desperate, wild, and terrifying. It happens in real-time (players get 10 seconds to declare an action before I move on), and the players rarely even know what it is their PCs are fighting, let alone their exact likelihood of hitting, special defences, etc. They may learn those things as they fight, but they’re not data stored in a library.

I understand that’s not everyone’s cup of tea. But I have shelves full of tactical, analytical, number-crunching boardgames. And I play RPGs for entirely different reasons, and to engage entirely different parts of my mind. I’m comfortable calling that “immersion.”

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Well, I have ways of enjoying myself with others other than being entertained by them. For instance, I converse with them.

How is this not you being entertained by them?

 

[Manbearcat]

Let me just say that I find it very...curious...and interesting...and a host of other things that the framing of the father + daughter + boat + mouth of river into bay + tentacle sea monster is a problem because "so much established fiction (literally just those things 5 scene tags were established) makes it impossible to surprise players (or the GM)."

The premise of the game is that the Ranger was a Ghost of the Past theme. We (neither the player nor myself) knew who she was or where she was or what was going on; effectively her existence was unknown to her. She only had a singular memory (in Backstory below). This is what she gave me to start the game. She authored a little backstory, set some themes, and authored a Kicker (an opening scene rife with conflict) and we took it from the point of her scene framing. This is basically the start of the game (where her consciousness emerges and we begin the journey of finding out who this character is):

Backstory memory/premise:

Last night was my last evening on my monthlong recon patrol. The moon was full as I chanced upon a spectral stag. Thinking it a sign from Melora, my curiosity got the best of me as I followed it deeper into the wilderness. The trees gave way to a moon-washed clearing where the stag revealed itself to be a Satyr. The fey promised to reveal a mystery that had been courting me in my dreams since I was a child. From its longcoat a perfect sphere emerged. I looked into its foggy depths. Sleep took me. I dreamed the same dream...running with reckless abandon in a rain-soaked forest..from what?..to what?..I know not. This time, the rain and the forest...they are real...

(Kicker) The beginning of play:

Moonlight cuts the darkness. Driving rain. Looming redwoods. Where am I? An ominous presence beyond my sight. Bloodcurdling scream. Is that chanting? Relentless fog. Soaked to the bone. Trees tearing at my skin. Was that another scream? Slow down. Breathe.

Breathe...

I lean my weight against a massive foreign tree and slow my pulse. All around massive trees sway in the stormy winds, allowing flighty permeation of moonbeams. The movement of the moonlight contrasts with a constant distant glow of an orange light beyond the tree I lean against. The wind picks up and I can hear the gentle chanting again. And smell blood.

Everything from that point forward was the play of the game letting us both (player and GM) be surprised by and collectively discover who the PC was and what the hell is going on here.

The scene on the bay? All we knew at that point was what had transpired up to that point:

* There were supernatural creatures/cults absconding with children from somewhere and a terrible ritual sacrifice.

* She saved these children from said sacrifice and learned a little bit about things; something terrible haunts this world...some kind of supernatural apocalypse (lycanthropy or something). The children were small enough that they didn't know where they were or where they were from. They were captured some time ago from varying villages that don't stray from their walls. A few were from a bay/river village (so she decided to find a river and follow it).

* Like The Road by Cormac McCarthy, all adults were proving dangerous or dangerously suspicious/protective (again, this turned into sort of a supernatural aftermath game as play wore on). Social interactions were fraught (at best).

* The physical world was violent and dangerous (benign topography as well as she was up in a precarious mountain domain with landslides and rushing rivers leading precipitously downward into a bay), with actual primal spirits, wicked fey, cults, and frightened humanoid communities besetting/accosting living things.


So she navigated several conflicts (including finding a place to safely stow these children while she journeys for help and to orient her to where she is and who she is). The rushing river hazard conflict ends and she filters out on the bay where the village is alleged to be.

The number of questions about this little girl and the father are endless. Who are they? Are they from the village that I'm looking for? Will they welcome me or rebuff me (particularly given the world). Does this sea creature haunt their fishing all the time? Is it some kind of creature that they worship and give offerings to so that their fisheries remain bountiful? The questions are endless.

But the player had intersecting longterm goals and the new scene opener crystalized her goals here and now. Save the daughter and father so that I can parley with them and hopefully they will help me/us (the children); either embrace me or reject me (depending on the success of the follow-on social conflict)...but I'll have more information regardless.

The number of ways that scene and the follow-on social conflict could have gone are myriad both in terms of the identities of the 4 parties involved (father, daughter, sea monster, village/villagers) and in terms of the trajectory of play.

Its an extremely odd thing to me to get hung up on "a stat block makes discovery/surprise impossible!" its not only not true...it seems a failure of...I don't know what? Conception of the giant creative matrix of realities in any given situation (particularly with so many unfixed parameters)?

 

[FrogReaver]

That is taking an actual episode of play, and an actual account of how it took place, and then conjecturing some ways in which a different approach to play might produce a similar fiction.

Is it possible to give an actual play example?

Not for me. I typically don’t run living sandboxes as a GM and most of the info you want is GM side info.

Why is walking through the various likely ways such play could happen not enough?

perhaps the fact that story now has so much player facing mechanics makes it easier to analyze in the way you prefer (play examples) than games with much less player facing mechanics and much more mechanical flexibiity in how the DM can generate content? Maybe you are approaching all analysis with a hammer when not all games are nails?

 

[Manbearcat]

Not for me. I typically don’t run living sandboxes as a GM and most of the info you want is GM side info.

Why is walking through the various likely ways such play could happen not enough?

perhaps the fact that story now has so much player facing mechanics makes it easier to analyze in the way you prefer (play examples) than games with much less player facing mechanics and much more mechanical flexibiity in how the DM can generate content? Maybe you are approaching all analysis with a hammer when not all games are nails?

I don’t agree that posting and analyzing play excerpts pivots on “is it Story Now or other.”

Ive run every type of game possible:

* 100 % freeform with all e of GM as sole arbiter, table negotiation to consensus, combo of both.

* AD&D and White Wolf GM Illusionism-fest + setting tourism + imposed metaplot + Cosplay Power Fantasy.

* Skilled-play Setting Hexcrawls.

* Pawn Stance Dungeon Crawls.

* Procedurally generated sandbox/setting (dungeon, wilderness, et al) - so a mix of Story Before and Story Now.

* Horror Spiral.

* Story Now whether intensely focused premise and loop like MLwM or more structured freeform like AW.

* Skilled Play/Story Now hybrid like 4e, Torchbearer, Blades.


Probably the only thing I have done is FKR (and I’m not convinced that it’s not just a title given to 100 % unstructured freeform + premise + random action resolution…I’ve done that too.)


In every one of these forms of play (and they’re extremely disparate), I can easily use the same template for analysis (and I have).

* Analyze premise/priorities.

* Analyze in extreme detail how we got from here to there (gamestate and fiction changes)…particularly honing in at the action resolution and conflict resolution intervals and how setting responds (or not).

* Analyze incentive structures

* Analyze how well those things cohere.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Its an extremely odd thing to me to get hung up on "a stat block makes discovery/surprise impossible!" its not only not true...it seems a failure of...I don't know what? Conception of the giant creative matrix of realities in any given situation (particularly with so many unfixed parameters)?

No one is criticising the overall mystery level of your campaign, we know nothing of it. But it is trivially true that the sort of mechanical infodump you demonstated limits the sort if mysteries you can have and gives the players information their characters couldn’t possibly have. Now if this doesn’t bother you then that’s obviously perfectly fine, but it shouldn’t be surprising if the method doesn’t sit well with everyone.

 

[FrogReaver]

I don’t agree that posting and analyzing play excerpts pivots on “is it Story Now or other.”

Ive run every type of game possible:

* 100 % freeform with all e of GM as sole arbiter, table negotiation to consensus, combo of both.

* AD&D and White Wolf GM Illusionism-fest + setting tourism + imposed metaplot + Cosplay Power Fantasy.

* Skilled-play Setting Hexcrawls.

* Pawn Stance Dungeon Crawls.

* Procedurally generated sandbox/setting (dungeon, wilderness, et al) - so a mix of Story Before and Story Now.

* Horror Spiral.

* Story Now whether intensely focused premise and loop like MLwM or more structured freeform like AW.

* Skilled Play/Story Now hybrid like 4e, Torchbearer, Blades.


Probably the only thing I have done is FKR (and I’m not convinced that it’s not just a title given to 100 % unstructured freeform + premise + random action resolution…I’ve done that too.)


In every one of these forms of play (and they’re extremely disparate), I can easily use the same template for analysis (and I have).

* Analyze premise/priorities.

* Analyze in extreme detail how we got from here to there (gamestate and fiction changes)…particularly honing in at the action resolution and conflict resolution intervals and how setting responds (or not).

* Analyze incentive structures

* Analyze how well those things cohere.

How can this be done by a player in a game that lacks player facing mechanics for all that is occurring?

when such a player is analyzing play and comes to a point where the GM generated content via a black box method then doesn’t the analysis abruptly stop?

 

[Campbell]

I do not often share stat blocks, but I almost always share target numbers. I am generous with the truth primarily because part of the fun of playing roleplaying games for me is that we are all (GM included) an audience to the unfolding narrative of play. Sharing target numbers, establishing clear stakes, being generous with the truth, and having open secrets all help us to have a clear idea of the narrative so we can all appreciate what's going on as both participants and audience members. I get to be a fan of the other players' characters because I feel the tension when they roll dice, I know the stakes, and how likely they are to succeed. An imperfect view of the fiction does help to immerse in character and the setting sometimes, but if I have no real insight into what's going on I can't really enjoy the unfolding narrative we are creating together.

 

[hawkeyefan]

I take the bolded as a given.

Do you?

You've gone on to describe a situation where the maguffin was destroyed in adventure 2 of a 5 part series, and then the GM simply narrated around that destruction to get everything right back on track for parts 3 to 5.

Undoing a development isn't exactly honoring it.

Correct, I would not; as this is enough to paint a pretty good picture of what's happening. As player I neither need nor care about the mechanical specifics under the hood of that scene; those are for the DM to worry about, and her telling me those details is unnecessary.

The one change I'd make would be to add the words "chances are" where I inserted the "[***]", as nothing is ever certain in combat.

Necessary isn't the point. We're talking about enhancing the understanding of the player so that they have a better ability to navigate the scene. they understand the stakes better and they understand the mechanical elements of the scenario.

 

[Manbearcat]

How can this be done by a player in a game that lacks player facing mechanics for all that is occurring?

when such a player is analyzing play and comes to a point where the GM generated content via a black box method then doesn’t the analysis abruptly stop?

Now that is a hell of a question!

I hadn't thought about that. I always view these things through the prism of running games (because that is all I've ever done).

I guess my answer would be...

* Have a candid, vulnerable conversation with your GM if you're curious about this stuff. Make it very clear that you're not judging them. You're genuinely curious about "how the sausage is made."

* Figure it out/analyze it together (if they're amenable). Its difficult for me to imagine it not being healthy for both parties. Player and GM understanding each others' perspectives, how those perspectives have come to be, how they can grow, change, or sharpen (sharpen here can mean "stay the same but become better at the sameness").


Its just like a relationship (any type). You talk things out. Once you get past the fear and discomfort and self-consciousness and clumsy navigation of things that are difficult to articulate (not just because they're emotionally charged...but maybe its just hard to articulate the nuts and bolts so you have to build a shared language)...what comes next (in this case TTRPG play) will be improved for the effort.