Response to Psionics Nerf (Move from inappropriate placement in House Rules thread)

[Kesh]

My solution is going to be bringing spellcasting to the same level as psionics.

I'm rewriting the psionics rules to have a bit more magical flavor, then using Unearthed Arcana's spell-point system to turn standard Vancian spells into psionic-like powers. This way, all magic in the campaign will run off the same system.

Nice. Neat. A hell of a lot of work on my part. But everything falls into line on the same scale.

 

[Slaved]

"You can play a GOD, but you cannot display any god-like powers or else."

That looks like the definition of playing a wizard, sorcerer, cleric, or druid already.

 

[DreamChaser]

I apologize if my OP came across to some as inflammatory.

I don't know how attributing a problem to user error = user is fat, stupid, and lazy but as 2+ people thought this is what I meant, I may have misspoken.

irdeggman said exactly what I was trying to say...perhaps better. PSIONICS IS A SYSTEM.

Anything, that needs specific counters to be used regularily, in order to push it down to reasonable levels, is quite obviously broken.

I don't see how this follows....oh...it's the reasonable levels....well, lets apply it to a core only game...

Okay...I once ran a very socially oriented city-based game. Little in the way of undead, oozes, etc. 2 players chose rogue, one chose urban druid, 1 chose bard. until I started throwing Undead at them, each of these characters was insanely overpowered. In a city setting dealing with humanoids pretty much exclusively, even bards can shine.

The standard D&D game is not automatically set up to balance a psionic character any more than an exclusively urban / humanoid / social game is set up to balance rogues and bards.

My core point is this: For every element you add to a game (or each that you take away), you must create challenges / threats / counters appropriate to that element. If you do not add in challenges related to psionics when you add in psionics it is not the fault of the psionic classes that they are able to overpower.


Now, on a side note, I don't believe (with the exception of a few powers - but don't blame an entire system for a few faulty powers; i didn't see anyone argue that the wizard class should be banned because of 3e haste) that psioncs are THAT much more powerful even when left unchecked. note my example above of the 5th level psion vs. the 5th level evoker:

If I have 30 PP (5th level psion with Int 15) and I want to last the day to keep up with the 5th level evoker (Int 16) who can cast 5 0, 5 1st, 4 2nd, and 3 3rd (17 total) spells each day, I need to be careful. I can in theory wipe myself out in 6 powers (none of which will actually do more die of damage than the wizards spells mind you). By the same token, I can blow the wizard out of the water by using 30 level 1 powers with no augment. Somewhere in between is a compromise (which coincidentally enough is 18 powers).

Sure, as a psion I can use 6 3rd-level equivalent powers dealing 5d6 damage, compared to the wizards 3 3rd-level spells dealing 5d6 damage. At that point, I am done. the wizard still has 14 spells left for the day, 4 of which are 2nd level and if some are scorching ray, potentially very damaging at 4d6 (note that 4d6 would require at least 4 pp which means that it costs a psion more than the wizard to do this amount of damage...the difference becomes even greater once the wizard gets a second ray).

Let's compare the sorcerer in now...

A 5th level sorcerer with a Cha of 15 knows 1 more spell than the psion knows powers (12 vs. 11). He can cast 18 spells per day (6 0-level, 7 1st-level, 5 2nd-level). He lacks 3rd level spells but has the same number of spells per day as the psion has powers (see the "compromise" approach between nova and 1 point per power).

That sorcerer going nova with scorching ray, magic missile, and ray of frost (lets leave disrupt undead out since it only affects undead) can deal 5 x (4d6 [avg 14]) + 7 x (3d4+3 (avg 11.5) + 6 x (1d3 [avg 2] = 70 + 80.5 + 12 = 162.5 damage to individual targets, no saves allowed, 80.5 points of which cannot be reduced by energy resistance and CANNOT MISS

A kineticist psion could use fully augmented fire or cold energy ray to deal 6 x (5d6+5 [avg 22.5) = 135 damage.

This example could become much longer with the inclusion of area powers / spells but the trend remains.

The only advantage the psion has over the sorcerer is that they can go nova more quickly. this speed is easily limited by keeping a reason for the psion to conserve PP (just as the sorcerer should have to use utility spells as well as attack spells). Add into the mix the danger created by antipsionic creatures and attacks and the field is leveled, IMO

YMMV

DC

 

[Bacris]

"You can play a GOD, but you cannot display any god-like powers or else."


That's a lame solution.

Psionics are like any other game elements. They have pros and cons. It's easy to maintain balance with them if the DM allows both the pros and the cons to occur as opposed to just the pros.

Just as lame as expecting the player of a core druid or cleric to not walk all over the game. Easily broken? Yup. Easily remedied? Yup. DM to player "Just don't do it, mmkay?"

EDIT: Or maybe I'm too much of an idealist to believe that such a simple act could actually resolve some portion of balance issues when classes were designed for 4 encounters per day and the DM recognizes that's not the style of game he's going to have

 

[Wolfwood2]

Just as lame as expecting the player of a core druid or cleric to not walk all over the game. Easily broken? Yup. Easily remedied? Yup. DM to player "Just don't do it, mmkay?"

EDIT: Or maybe I'm too much of an idealist to believe that such a simple act could actually resolve some portion of balance issues when classes were designed for 4 encounters per day and the DM recognizes that's not the style of game he's going to have

I think it's tough when the other players are turning to the psion and saying, "3D10? 3D10? Augment for 6d10 with that Mind Thrust why don't you? My PC is in melee with those guys, and we need to take them down."

Other players don't want to be over-shadowed, but they also don't like to feel that another player is deliberately holding back. And sometimes it is appropriate for a psion to augment for all they can. Without some specific guidelines all you're doing is causing the player of the psion unreasonable stress.

 

[Bacris]

But, again, there's a difference between novaing and using the resources necessary. There's a very big difference.

If a fully augmented power is needed, use it. But examples that have been tossed about where the psion is max-augmenting every single manifestation is very different than that one shot that NEEDS to be at full power.

Against mooks or enemies nearly dead, it's silly to max-augment every power - it's wasting resources. It's not like I'm saying "never, ever augment to your manifester level." I'm saying "don't nova." Fully augmented powers aren't novaing. Spending all your daily resources in one encounter as quickly as possible, that's novaing.

 

[KarinsDad]

My core point is this: For every element you add to a game (or each that you take away), you must create challenges / threats / counters appropriate to that element. If you do not add in challenges related to psionics when you add in psionics it is not the fault of the psionic classes that they are able to overpower.

This is an interesting generic statement, but what do you have to back this up?

Why can the challenges not be totally unrelated to psionics and not still be challenging?

Let's compare the sorcerer in now...

A 5th level sorcerer with a Cha of 15 knows 1 more spell than the psion knows powers (12 vs. 11). He can cast 18 spells per day (6 0-level, 7 1st-level, 5 2nd-level). He lacks 3rd level spells but has the same number of spells per day as the psion has powers (see the "compromise" approach between nova and 1 point per power).

That sorcerer going nova with scorching ray, magic missile, and ray of frost (lets leave disrupt undead out since it only affects undead) can deal 5 x (4d6 [avg 14]) + 7 x (3d4+3 (avg 11.5) + 6 x (1d3 [avg 2] = 70 + 80.5 + 12 = 162.5 damage to individual targets, no saves allowed, 80.5 points of which cannot be reduced by energy resistance and CANNOT MISS

Excuse me? Magic Missile cannot be stopped by a Shield spell or a Ring of Spell Turning or a Globe of Invulnerability or a Brooch of Shielding or Spell Resistance or Invisibility or being in the Dark or a Grapple or even an Attack of Opportunity? There are many ways to stop Magic Missile.

A kineticist psion could use fully augmented fire or cold energy ray to deal 6 x (5d6+5 [avg 22.5) = 135 damage.

This example could become much longer with the inclusion of area powers / spells but the trend remains.

I noticed that you picked some of the best no save spells for various levels like Magic Missile for the Sorcerer, but then picked Energy Ray for the Kineticist? Sure Energy Ray has no save, but Energy Missile can selectively target up to 5 opponents and doesn't miss with a failed roll to hit (i.e. it typically does damage). Sorcerers typically have to find a metamagic feat to selectively attack multiple targets with an energy spell.

That's an average damage range of 67.5 to 675 points of damage for Energy Missile depending on situation. Assuming half of the opponents save and the Kineticist can only target 2.5 targets per attempt, that's still 253 points of damage per day or the Psion taking out 6 5th level Fighters with Cons of 14 per day. 253 vs. the 134 of the Sorcerer (assuming a 35% chance to miss with the Scorching Rays and the Ray of Frost against most opponents that you kind of ignored with your example). This can easily be a lot more damage due to targeting a lot more opponents, especially once melee starts.

I understand that you were discussing single target attacks, but that is not the definition of Nova. A real Nova seriously damages or wipes out multiple opponents, not just a single one.


On top of that, your total damage is misleading in another way, even for single targets.

Scorching Ray in your example is 5 opponents for 14 points each. A 5th level combatant opponent typically has 30+ hit points. With Scorching Ray (or Magic Missile), it would typically take 3 spells to take out this opponent if they all hit. 42 points of damage in 3 rounds assuming none of them miss.

With Energy Ray, it would take 2 powers to take out this opponent. 45 points of damage in 2 rounds. Only 2 chances to miss, not 3.

Killing an opponent in 2 rounds instead of in 3 rounds is a fairly significant advantage that your "total average damage" does not take into account.

With a typical 65% chance to hit, such an opponent would often require 4 or 5 Scorching Rays (and 4 or 5 rounds) to be successful whereas Energy Ray will typically do it in 3 rounds.

For arcane spell casters, a typical opponent might have 18 hit points at 5th level. Magic Missile or Scorching Ray typically requires 2 spells to take him out, Energy Ray usually requires 1 power to take him out. 1 round versus 2 rounds (assuming they all hit). The arcane opponent does not have a chance to react to that damage if he is unconscious or dead in a single round.

That is what Nova is about, not average damage. Wiping one or more opponents out quickly, not slowly.

Your example totally ignores these basic real game facts about psionic Nova.

The only advantage the psion has over the sorcerer is that they can go nova more quickly. this speed is easily limited by keeping a reason for the psion to conserve PP (just as the sorcerer should have to use utility spells as well as attack spells).

This is quite frankly false. Psions have other advantages (like manifesting any power in a grapple with a concentration check as opposed to spells without somatic components) and specific race Psions like Elans have some significant advantages.

Plus, if the Psion Novas and helps the party take out the NPC opposition in 3 rounds, he used up a lot of his own resources, but saved a lot of party resources at the same time (compared to a 5 or 6 round combat). The concept of "must conserve for later" is not always necessarily valid. A smartly run Psion knows when to Nova and would also have backup items to augment his abililties when he is low on PP, just like a smartly run Wizard often crafts scrolls for utility spells.

 

[Nifft]

Why can the challenges not be totally unrelated to psionics and not still be challenging?

He actually said "appropriate for", not "related to".

Excuse me? Magic Missile cannot be stopped by a Shield spell or a Ring of Spell Turning or a Globe of Invulnerability or a Brooch of Shielding or Spell Resistance or Invisibility or being in the Dark or a Grapple or even an Attack of Opportunity? There are many ways to stop Magic Missile.

He actually said "CANNOT MISS", not "UNSTOPPABLE". (And amusingly, I think you neglected the one Wizard spell that could induce "missing".)

That is what Nova is about, not average damage. Wiping one or more opponents out quickly, not slowly.

Agree.

Your example totally ignores these basic real game facts about psionic Nova.

For an arcane spellcaster, direct damage is sucky anyway. Taking out multiple opponents is much quicker for him using insta-kill, paralyze, or insta-suck debuff spells.

A smartly run Psion knows when to Nova and would also have backup items to augment his abililties when he is low on PP, just like a smartly run Wizard often crafts scrolls for utility spells.

Agree.

Wizards and Psions have different strengths. Psions are better at direct damage (up until Wizards get to Empower their fireballs); Wizards are better at save-or-suffer, group buffs and utility spells.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Slaved]

I usually see nova refered to as using all, or nearly all, of your resources in a very short span of time.

If it was KarinsDad said then if a character spent all of his resources attempting to destroy an illusion then it would not actually be a nova, no matter how many resources were expended or how quickly.

 

[Nonlethal Force]

But, again, there's a difference between novaing and using the resources necessary. There's a very big difference.

If a fully augmented power is needed, use it. But examples that have been tossed about where the psion is max-augmenting every single manifestation is very different than that one shot that NEEDS to be at full power.

Against mooks or enemies nearly dead, it's silly to max-augment every power - it's wasting resources. It's not like I'm saying "never, ever augment to your manifester level." I'm saying "don't nova." Fully augmented powers aren't novaing. Spending all your daily resources in one encounter as quickly as possible, that's novaing.

I think this is especially true when held up against a wizard (or perhaps more appropriate) a sorcerer. For example:

Player and DM have an agreement to not nova, because that might be metagaming and the DM would prefer not to have to stat out 5 encounters just in case the player does nova. So, the player humbly agrees to play his character as through resource management is desirable - which a "real" character in game would actually do.

In this case, I would think it appropriate for a player to use the sorcerer of an equivalent level (or specialist wizard, I suppose) as a guide for how many fully augmented powers they use. Say the sorcerer can cast 4 5th level spells as their max highest level. In that case, the player with the psion character should feel confident in using 4 5th level powers (or lower level powers augmented up to an equivalent of a 5th level power). This would be an excellent benchmark to try and shoot for in a given day.

Note, I did say benchmark. Some days might use a bit more, some days a bit less. But holding a psion up to a sorcerer or specialist wizard is not a bad place to go in terms of being a guide to legitimate non-metagaming resource management.