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D&D (2024) Rests should be dropped. Stop conflating survival mechanics with resource recovery.

TheSword

Legend
Does resting ina dungeon really risk anything?

The gains are too huge & any actual risk almost entirely relies on the GM invoking GM fiat or rocks fall type scenarios. I wish to hell those two videos were not rooted in mechanics that ensure they are totally plausible until the GM starts making the world act implausibly.
So the first video has some serious pacing issues with their humour but aside from that is predicated on the idea that the DM has encounters that are totally separate from time - merely waiting for the PCs to drop in on them at a time of their choosing. It’s also relies on the idea that random encounters - indeed even combat - are dangerous. Those combats are seen as risk free - hence the party not caring if they happen or not.

As an aside… how is the wizard getting their fireballs back when the DM is throwing random encounters at them while they’re resting?

Why has the bad guy not just moved on… or completed their nefarious scheme and decimated the nearby kingdom, or decided to mobalise against the tardy foes in force.

The second video (much better delivery) assumes that hp damage represents wounds. Which to be honest I’ve come to realise just isn’t the case… otherwise any amount of non-magical healing doesn’t really make sense. Because non-magical healin leg is good for the game and we need it, hp no longer can refer to wounds beyond a scrapes, nicks, and bruises. I’m ok with that.
 

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tetrasodium

Legend
Supporter
Epic
Ok. Yes. The DM is an naughty word if they constantly use their (limitless) power to screw over the players. We agree on that. However, if the player’s abuse the knowledge that the DM isn’t going to TPK them every time they rest, it sucks the life (and the shared fantasy) out of the story.

It’s back to the social contract. The DM agrees to not screw with the players needlessly, and the players agree to not take advantage of the DM’s desire not to end the game by demanding rests (etc).

So, if we ask our DM if we think it’s safe to take a rest, and they say “yes” or “probably”, we trust they aren’t going to spring a totally hidden dragon on us. But if they say “no, there’s too many patrols around”, we take them at their word and not say “Oh yeah? Prove it!”
I think that last bit is the important result of the old rest rules in 2e & 3.x. Back in 2e I remember "is this an ok place to take a rest?" type questions generally being a pretty good natured discussion with both sides feeling like the other was being reasonable even if it came down to "yes/no but" "yes/no because"& "maybe if" type statements. 3.x continued that and with CLW wands the GM was given a dial to somewhat passively limit them for recovery or allow recovery at a growing cost. Those discussions in 5e have a very different & far less collaborative nature in ways that makes them quickly start to sour in unfun & stressful ways.
 

TheSword

Legend
The dice.

Again, if you're not understanding what Im getting at, then ask questions, don't just assume the worst.

Gathering, ideally, would be hooked into travel activities and the chances of getting things (particularly specific things) would be some formula that integrates the players skill in whatever gathering type, the set difficulties of the area being travelled, and the rarity of whats being sought-after.

There is no DM hording the privilege of gathering over the players. They can do it if they're travelling, period. The DM has no say, because its not up to the DM what parts of the game the players can and can't choose to play in the middle of the game.

If the DM is that much of a garbage control freak then thats a Session Zero concern to say that gathering and crafting can only be done with sufficient ass kissing, and the players will filter out as appropriate.
You have an interesting conversational style.
 


Remathilis

Legend
The dice.

Again, if you're not understanding what Im getting at, then ask questions, don't just assume the worst.

Gathering, ideally, would be hooked into travel activities and the chances of getting things (particularly specific things) would be some formula that integrates the players skill in whatever gathering type, the set difficulties of the area being travelled, and the rarity of whats being sought-after.

There is no DM hording the privilege of gathering over the players. They can do it if they're travelling, period. The DM has no say, because its not up to the DM what parts of the game the players can and can't choose to play in the middle of the game.

If the DM is that much of a garbage control freak then thats a Session Zero concern to say that gathering and crafting can only be done with sufficient ass kissing, and the players will filter out as appropriate.

Give me an example of what the PCs should be gathering. Are we talking kingsfoil and deer blood, essence from leylines, displacer beast tendrils and owlbear beaks, or the souls of their fallen foes?

Next, what are you thinking the average success ratio should be? Will finding needed resources (and being able to craft/refine them) be an easy or a difficult process? How much time would the process take? (Weeks, days, hours?)

I've played MMOs where a large portion of the gameplay loop is going out to harvest wood, metal, plants, and the like, refining it, and then creating new weapons or potions with them. Each step in the gather, refine and craft loop having a chance of failure depending on the characters skill and item being created and difficulty of acquisition tied to rarity (rare items spawn less frequently) and location (powerful items spawn in more dangerous places).

(Said MMOs also have full PvP, but that's not relevant for this discussion except to add a further element of scarcity and danger to the mix.)

I'm interested to see how you envision this working beyond a vague gesturing towards dice rolls...
 

Are we talking kingsfoil and deer blood, essence from leylines, displacer beast tendrils and owlbear beaks, or the souls of their fallen foes?

Yes. And also metals, woods, leathers, etc. All of the things and then some for good measure.

Think Runescape but without the obnoxious grind and repetition.

Next, what are you thinking the average success ratio should be?

That depends on the crafting system in question. To keep it short, I call my own system 7 Dice. You roll 7 standard RPG dice and from these you can derive 6 different values that correspond to different aspects of the crafting process, which each confer different properties and can integrare different crafting components.

Each value can be lowered or increased utilizing a "crafting budget" (a combo of skill modifiers, energy mods, and appropriate class features) and once you've set each one, you total everything and this determines the DC to confirm the item, against which your skill roll is compared.

Most "novice" and "apprentice" level items will be very unlikely to fail, but the chances to confirm better ones increases exponentially, and in turn are more costly to your crafting budgets in the first place; you won't be making mastercraft items without being effectively a master, or getting extremely lucky.

This is also helped along as any excess crafting budget you have (such as from skipping a special component, or even skipping a standard one; you don't necessarily need a scabbard or a hilt after all). So in the mid levels you'll be able to train pretty consistently without having to waste materials, and by later levels you'll be able to scavenge useable items even if you're not able to confirm the crafted item you intended.

In this case if we're talking potions, may be you lose out on a spiffy 6d12 Mana potion, but you might get a 1d12 one instead. (I made those numbers up)

Will finding needed resources (and being able to craft/refine them) be an easy or a difficult process?

Depends on the resource, and I wouldn't include refining myself; Id assume that as part of the crafting process if it isn't explicitly already in there. (In my system, smelting and tanning is assumed as part of crafting martial weapons and armor, as is spinning and carving for their magical counterparts).

How much time would the process take? (Weeks, days, hours?)

Im personally partial to skipping the time gating as a matter of fun (particularly to avoid tedium; part of what I wanted my crafting system to enable was something you could quickly run at the table but it still felt like you were actually doing something), but most things we can get some reasonable timeframes, and they could have induced time modifiers introduced at higher crafting budgets.

In a high fantasy world most weapons and armor aren't going to take long to make, and will be well within your typical downtimes for an adventuring party. Potions and the like, especially basic ones, could even be done in-situ, though more complex and powerful brews should require substantive brewing time.

What time gating can enable is more depth, as this is good fodder for tools and equipment to also have tiers that help offset the chances of failure, especially for stuff that the character has to just let sit somewhere. Tools and equipment in fact can even be craftable objects unto themselves, something you make so you can chain them into better items, which enable you to go into more dangerous areas, which get you better components to make better tools to make better items and so on.

Thats a whole ass gameplay loop right there. :)

I've played MMOs

Indeed. Runescape is one of the formative experiences Ive had with RPGs of any kind and has remained a consistent influence on my preferences and thinking for how RPGs ought to be structured. Its skill system and how its integrated into adventuring in particular is a big time inspiration more games, especially TTRPGs, should learn from.
 

tetrasodium

Legend
Supporter
Epic
So the first video has some serious pacing issues with their humour but aside from that is predicated on the idea that the DM has encounters that are totally separate from time - merely waiting for the PCs to drop in on them at a time of their choosing. It’s also relies on the idea that random encounters - indeed even combat - are dangerous. Those combats are seen as risk free - hence the party not caring if they happen or not.

As an aside… how is the wizard getting their fireballs back when the DM is throwing random encounters at them while they’re resting?

Why has the bad guy not just moved on… or completed their nefarious scheme and decimated the nearby kingdom, or decided to mobalise against the tardy foes in force.

The second video (much better delivery) assumes that hp damage represents wounds. Which to be honest I’ve come to realise just isn’t the case… otherwise any amount of non-magical healing doesn’t really make sense. Because non-magical healin leg is good for the game and we need it, hp no longer can refer to wounds beyond a scrapes, nicks, and bruises. I’m ok with that.
Your nitpicks are ignoring the fact that the GM has "TPK the party" and "nuke this adventure & build a new one... again" cards to play. That's the problem. Those aren't fun for anyone & is not at all fair to the GM.
 

mamba

Legend
I said it before that attrition can come from more than once place. Itd be nice if you acknowledged and engaged that point instead of ignoring it to reiterate your point.
yes, you had your tension pool. No matter how you slice and dice it, you removed resources as one (large) component of attrition however
 



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