D&D (2024) Rests should be dropped. Stop conflating survival mechanics with resource recovery.

[Neonchameleon]

Well this is getting into semantics.

But whatever you call it, starting with set resources, and using them up over time, is a challenge.

No it isn't. Starting with resources and using them up over time is not a challenge. I can throw things out of the window.

Starting with resources and using them up over time to an already challenging objective adds further challenge. But the challenge does not itself come from the attrition; the attrition just adds to the difficulty of the challenge.

 

[Remathilis]

Thats gritty realism, not slow natural recovery. Two very different things.

And GR as it is in 5e is awful.

The abilities aren't whats restored.

Then I have no idea what you're on about and frankly I have given up trying.

I'm happy for you though. Or sorry that happened.

 

[mellored]

Starting with resources and using them up over time to an already challenging objective adds further challenge. But the challenge does not itself come from the attrition; the attrition just adds to the difficulty of the challenge.

Semantics...

But sure. We'll go with your definition.

 

[Bagpuss]

Did you read past what you quoted or fid you not understand what you read?

The DM controls what is in the game world, which includes any resources, such as what you need to craft your mana potions.

Yes, if the players want to spend all their game time farming they should feel free to.

Well they still need to get the DM's permission effectively to do that so, again he still has control of the recovery mechanic.

Its not the game's responsibility to stop bad players ruining the game.

So what's your problem with the DM controlling (to some degree) when you can rest then? If it isn't the games responsibility to stop a bad player (in this case the DM) ruining the game?

So?

So I've yet to see an RPG with a functional economy built into the rules, not saying it isn't possible, but if it was easy or desirable it would have been done by now.

 

[Emberashh]

Then I have no idea what you're on about and frankly I have given up trying.

You...tried?

Anyway, as mentioned earlier abilities aren't whats restored. You have energy in the form of Mana and/or Stamina. That is whats restored, and you can spend it however you choose.

Passive recovery in this context is slow, meaning you can gain some of this back naturally over time, but to fully restore you either need potions, or need to take a considerable amount of downtime, which means you're not out adventuring, meaning you don't get components or gold to make or acquire potions.

You want passive recovery because, it makes sense, but also because without it you're prone to soft-locking people if they can't get potions.

The DM controls what is in the game world, which includes any resources, such as what you need to craft your mana potions.

You didn't answer the question. Did you read past what you quoted or did you not understand what you read?

Well they still need to get the DM's permission effectively to do that so

I shudder at the state of your table if players need permission to play the game. This reeks of a horrendous GMing attitude.

So what's your problem with the DM controlling (to some degree) when you can rest then?

Because its contrived, unrealistic, and isn't fun for anyone, including the DM.

So I've yet to see an RPG with a functional economy built into the rules

You should read more RPGs. And you're overstating what a game economy has to be anyway. This is less Gazillionaire trader sim and more just good synergy between costs and item rarity.

 

[Remathilis]

You...tried?

Anyway, as mentioned earlier abilities aren't whats restored. You have energy in the form of Mana and/or Stamina. That is whats restored, and you can spend it however you choose.

THAT'S WHAT I #&+$+_# SAID! I literally used Elder Scrolls health, magicka and stamina to express the idea of having HP, magical abilities and "mundane" abilities that recharge slowly (days and weeks) but potions can speed up recovery! I used D&D examples because this is a D&D board.

As for the "you tried"? Even if I agreed with your point before, the contempt in your choice of language in engaging would have turned me off. I recommend a less smug and contemptuous attitude if you're serious about convincing anyone your idea has merit.

 

[Emberashh]

THAT'S WHAT I #&+$+_# SAID!

It isn't because when you're framing the abilities as whats being restored you're missing a critical part of what would make the system work.

Remember that my idea is an actual Energy system thats augmented by a crafting and gathering system, not just dropping rests for a half-baked potion system and calling it a day.

If you're trying to force that system to be about the abilities being restored, and not the Energy you spend to activate those abilities, you are not getting what I'm arguing for.

Your attempt to frame your statements as a matter of putting into a "DND context" doesn't change this because it skips over that the point of this is to change DND, not talk about something else while leaving DND alone.

Its akin to saying you need to frame say a Maneuver system for martials in the "context of DND" to talk about it, as if they're separate things and not an addition.

I recommend a less smug and contemptuous attitude

It is interesting how apparently both sides of this topic believe the other is being very smug and contemptous.

And sorry but no you didn't try. You kept assuming things and then got mad when I tell you thats not what Im saying, despite being very explicit about my idea more than once.

 

[TheSword]

May be neither of you get my point.

What Im saying is that you can in fact get a restful sleep anywhere and that the world will in fact respond to you doing so. This is why the problems with rest as game resource recovery is bad because in order to have a balanced game, you have to violate one of these realities.

I thought I spelled that out but apparently not. Neither of you are even remotely talking about what Im talking about.

Rest is only part of the resource recovery… it’s rest AND a 24 period. I really don’t have a problem with folks getting some charges back once every 24 hours. The need for a rest just means in circumstances when the DM wants to add additional danger or drama they can extend this period by preventing a sleep.

It’s the same reason why I find the hate on Short rests very odd. I suspect it’s DMs being too restrictive that is the real problem. Short rests are 5e’s ‘once per encounter’ equivalent, with the added opportunity for the DM to prevent recovery if the drama requires it.

 

[tetrasodium]

Rest is only part of the resource recovery… it’s rest AND a 24 period. I really don’t have a problem with folks getting some charges back once every 24 hours. The need for a rest just means in circumstances when the DM wants to add additional danger or drama they can extend this period by preventing a sleep.

It’s the same reason why I find the hate on Short rests very odd. I suspect it’s DMs being too restrictive that is the real problem. Short rests are 5e’s ‘once per encounter’ equivalent, with the added opportunity for the DM to prevent recovery if the drama requires it.

5e does everything it can to make sure that waiting an extra 24hours does not matter though. does anyone like d&d gameplay based on

Spoiler: this?

Even beyond that, has wotc published any HC adventures with that level of time pressure?

 

[DEFCON 1]

Does nobody use the variant rules that say the DM can make Short and Long Rests to whatever length they want?

If you want Short Rests to be 5 minutes... you all decide to make Short Rest be 5 minutes. You don't need it to be written in the Player's Handbook that it's 5 minutes if you can just use the variant rule in the DMG. I mean this was the whole point of calling them Short Rests and Long Rests in the first place rather than a set timeframe. So that every DM could decide how long they wanted their lengths to be.

Now if you tell me that you have a preferred length of time for Rests but that your DM and/or fellow players don't agree with you... that's absolutely not a valid reason for expecting WotC to change their rules just so you can get your way with your group. You want to play with that group of yours... sometimes you'll have to make a sacrifice or two. But that's true of every single facet of the game.