Rethinking Attributes

Einlanzer0

Adventurer
I understand that the ability scores in D&D at this point are so iconic that people are afraid to touch them, but I've always felt dissatisfied with them. Here are my biggest complaints in a nutshell:
1. They aren't very well balanced. Some attributes (Dex, Con) are much more generally useful than others (Int, Cha). This is in part due to the way the mental stats are caster-based (see below)
2. Granularity is arbitrary. Why are Str and Con, or Int and Wis, separate scores while Dex encompasses both Dexterity and Agility? The ability scores should either be totally granular or equally broad.
3. There is no ability score governing aptitude with magic. This is a personal preference, but IMO it makes no sense that, say, Int, governs literally everything about how proficient you are at casting spells, with no measure for innate ability outside of how smart you are. it also leads to Int being a dumpstat for every besides wizards, which is goofy.
4. The mental stats are all weirdly conceived, poorly defined, and aren't even utilized well within the poor definitions used. As an example - Wis is actually an aspect of Int, and has nothing to do with perception, and is inversely correlated with zeal (in other words, clerics should really use Cha and not Wis for spellcasting).

So, here I present my ability score system designed for granularity (there is an option to come for reduced granularity, featuring 3-4 attributes instead of 6). This expands the 6 current scores into 9 (which scales neatly), with one of those 9 (Thaumaturgy) being used only for spellcasters. This is intended for two things - a.) to help balance spellcasters relative to non-spellcasters, and b.) to allow other attributes to be better balanced and desirable for all classes. All spellcasters will use Thaumaturgy to set save DCs and attack rolls for spells, but may use other attributes as well - such as a wizard receiving bonus spells based on Int. It's worth noting that virtually all classes will face increased MAD from these changes, which is actually intended. Character building should involve tough choices, which makes it more interesting and leads to greater diversity among characters. I am well aware that there will probably need to be tweaks to some class features to make sure none are unjustly boosted or nerfed by these changes. It will be a work in progress.

Strength - Muscle power and stamina. Attack Rolls - melee and thrown ranged Skill - Athletics. Secondary Mechanics - Encumbrance.
Dexterity - Hand-eye coordination and motor skills. Attack rolls - finesse melee and ranged. Skill - Legerdemain. Secondary Mechanics - Crit range.
Thaumaturgy - Aptitude for channeling magics. Attack rolls - all spells. Skill - Spellcraft. Secondary Mechanics - Rituals
Constitution - Endurance, health, and tolerance of discomfort. Skills - Focus, Tolerance. Secondary Mechanics - HP and HD
Agility - speed, physical reflexes, grace, and balance. Skills - Acrobatics, Stealth. Secondary mechanics - light/no armor AC, Initiative
Instinct - Awareness, mental reflexes, sensory processing - Skills - Perception, Survival. Secondary mechanics - passive perception
Intellect - education, memory, problem solving. Skills - Lore, Logic. Secondary mechanics - Tactics (variant Hero Points)
Wisdom - judgment, maturity, and empathy. Skills - Caregiving, Intuition. Secondary mechanics - Sanity (resource for mental damage)
Charisma - presence and magnetism. Skills - Influence, Performance. Secondary mechanics - Reknown and Loyalty (charisma also takes on more will based saves)

That's all! As you can see, all "primary attributes" (Str, Dex, and Tha) are tied to one type of attack/dmg roll and 1 skill. "Secondary" attributes (Con, Agi, Awa, Int, Wis, Cha) are all tied to two skills. All attributes have at least one sub-mechanic making them worthwhile for anyone who wants to take them. It's also worth noting that 4 attributes (Str, Con, Agi, Ins) are applicable to pretty much all ambulatory life forms while the other 4 (Dex, Int, Wis, Cha) are specific to intelligent life.
 
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I respectfully disagree.

The Basic rules are designed to be simple enough to be played out of the box by people who have never played before, and the PHB expands consistently from that.

Like a lot of players, for me DnD 5e is a breath of fresh air after decades of increasingly complex sets of rules in many RPGs. Do I want more options for my game? Yes, but not to the extent that your suggestion encompasses, and I'll work out anything not in the RAW with my gaming group in selecting our house rules.

None of us got everything we wanted from the DnD Next play-testing, but I feel the results are fairly decent, and future releases may even deliver options akin to your proposal. Likely, others may feel as you do and grab your ideas and run with them.

That being said, there are things you've stated above that I like, and you've definitely provided food for thought. Expanding the attributes reminds me of the Player's Options sourcebook from 2e, that broke out each of the attributes into 2 sub-attributes, and I recall liking what they had done with that.

Thanks!

RT
 
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So I think some of what you say is pretty good, some is not my choice, but that does not mean it is wrong.

I think fewer stats are better than more. The more stats you have the more MAD you get. I think you have it right about Divine magic making more sense for CHA than WIS. I generally favor WIS converting directly over to Perception and then moving the non-perception related stuff to INT or CHA. Below is how I would do you thing.

STR muscle power and stamina. Attack Rolls - melee and thrown ranged Skill - Athletics. Secondary Mechanics - Encumbrance.

DEX hand-eye coordination and motor skills. Attack rolls - finesse melee and ranged. Skill - Legerdemain. Secondary Mechanics - Crit range.
speed, physical reflexes, grace, and balance. Skills - Acrobatics, Stealth. Secondary mechanics - light/no armor AC, Initiative

CON endurance, health, and tolerance of discomfort. Skills - Focus, Tolerance. Secondary Mechanics - HP and HD

INT education, memory, problem solving. Skills - Lore, Logic. Secondary mechanics - Tactics (variant Hero Points)
Aptitude for channeling Arcane magics. Attack rolls - all spells. Skill - Spellcraft. Secondary Mechanics - Rituals

WIS awareness, mental reflexes, sensory processing - Skills - Perception, Survival. Secondary mechanics - passive perception
Aptitude for channeling Innate magics. Attack rolls - all spells. Skill - Spellcraft. Secondary Mechanics - Rituals

CHA presence and magnetism. Skills - Influence, Performance. Secondary mechanics - Reknown and Loyalty (charisma also takes on more will based saves)
judgment, maturity, and empathy. Skills - Caregiving, Intuition. Secondary mechanics - Sanity (resource for mental damage)
Aptitude for channeling Divine magics. Attack rolls - all spells. Skill - Spellcraft. Secondary Mechanics - Rituals
 

So I think some of what you say is pretty good, some is not my choice, but that does not mean it is wrong.

I think fewer stats are better than more. The more stats you have the more MAD you get. I think you have it right about Divine magic making more sense for CHA than WIS. I generally favor WIS converting directly over to Perception and then moving the non-perception related stuff to INT or CHA. Below is how I would do you thing.

STR muscle power and stamina. Attack Rolls - melee and thrown ranged Skill - Athletics. Secondary Mechanics - Encumbrance.

DEX hand-eye coordination and motor skills. Attack rolls - finesse melee and ranged. Skill - Legerdemain. Secondary Mechanics - Crit range.
speed, physical reflexes, grace, and balance. Skills - Acrobatics, Stealth. Secondary mechanics - light/no armor AC, Initiative

CON endurance, health, and tolerance of discomfort. Skills - Focus, Tolerance. Secondary Mechanics - HP and HD

INT education, memory, problem solving. Skills - Lore, Logic. Secondary mechanics - Tactics (variant Hero Points)
Aptitude for channeling Arcane magics. Attack rolls - all spells. Skill - Spellcraft. Secondary Mechanics - Rituals

WIS awareness, mental reflexes, sensory processing - Skills - Perception, Survival. Secondary mechanics - passive perception
Aptitude for channeling Innate magics. Attack rolls - all spells. Skill - Spellcraft. Secondary Mechanics - Rituals

CHA presence and magnetism. Skills - Influence, Performance. Secondary mechanics - Reknown and Loyalty (charisma also takes on more will based saves)
judgment, maturity, and empathy. Skills - Caregiving, Intuition. Secondary mechanics - Sanity (resource for mental damage)
Aptitude for channeling Divine magics. Attack rolls - all spells. Skill - Spellcraft. Secondary Mechanics - Rituals

Perhaps I'm in the minority in liking MAD. I feel that in the core rules there is not enough of it. Every attribute should have something compelling to offer every character. This makes character building more interesting and leads to more diverse characters.
 

Here is how I would do it:
STR Weapon Damage rolls, Some melee weapon attack rolls, Encumbrance and Armor, Athletics skill, I would add an armor (or some other name) skill to help with encumbrance and armor, I would create a Power Attack skill which would help with strength based attacks and damage rolls, and I would tie strength saves to athletics skill.

DEX All attack rolls (including spells, melee attacks could use STR as a weapon quality), Acrobatics, Sleight of Hands, and Stealth skill, I would tie the DEX save to acrobatics, I would create a dodge skill (or some other name) that would help with your AC, I would move all the tools that are DEX related back to actual skills, I would create a ranged attack skill, melee attack skill and a spell attack skill, and I would remove initiative.

CON I would keep HP bonus and would add an Endurance skill which would double as the CON save too.

INT Arcana, History, Investigation, Nature, Religion remain but I would also slide over Handle Animal, Insight, Medicine, and Survival, I would also move in all of the tools and languages as skills. Capture languages as one skill called linguistics. All Arcane casting DCs would be set by INT. Insight would be the INT save with this idea. Insight and Investigation get in a fight and the figuring stuff out part comes out and goes to Insight and the rest goes to Investigate.

WIS Perception is the only skill here now. It is one of the most important to an adventurer so no contest on if this is still a valid skill and or not a dump stat. The save gets tied to Perception. This save is utilized as the passive perception check would, it also is the check for surprise, it also is the check for initiative - gaining your bearing on the battlefield at the onset of a battle. All Innate casting DCs would be set by WIS.

CHA Deception, Intimidation, Performance, Persuasion are all still here. I would add Will to the skill list as well as all the tools that apply here. I might also include a leadership skill. I would make the Will skill tie to the CHA save. All Divine casting DCs would be set by CHA.

For casters:
Arcane (INT)
Wizard
Bard
Druid*
Ranger*
Rogue (Arcane Trickster)
Fighter (Eldritch Knight)
Innate (WIS)
Sorcerer
Monk (Elements)
Barbarian (Totem)
Divine (CHA)
Cleric
Paladin
Warlock
*Nature magic has more traditionally fit into Divine though I think they fit better as Arcane, to each there own.
 

Strength - Athletics
Dexterity - Sleight of Hand (Legerdemein)
Thaumaturgy - Spellcraft (new)

Constitution - Focus, Tolerance (both new)
Agility - Acrobatics, Stealth
Awareness - Perception, Survival
Intellect - Logic (new), Knowledge (replaces individual knowledge skills. Special rules apply)
Wisdom - Soothing (more generalized form of Animal Handling), Insight (more generalized form of Investigation) - Yes, investigation belongs with Wis, not Int, and Perception belongs elsewhere
Charisma - Influence (consolidated Deception, Intimidation, Persuasion), Performance


If you really wanted to narrow those down into the standard attributes, here's what I'd roll:

Strength - Athletics
Dexterity (which is really Agility) - Acrobatics, Stealth, SoH
Constitution - Focus, Tolerance
Intelligence - Knowledge, Logic, Perception
Wisdom - Insight, Survival, Soothing
Charisma - Performance, Influence

IMO, Wisdom is very badly utilized. Perception really has nothing to do with either Int or Wis, which is why it really should be an independent mechanic (or, as I've done, tied to a new Awareness attribute).
 

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