Revised Challenge Ratings/Encounter Levels (pdf)

[Upper_Krust]

Hi there Kerrick!

I read through this thing, and I like what I see.

Thanks for the kind words.

This thing beats the half-assed CR rating system in that Dragon article (the one on creating monsters) hands-down.

Well I think they were a bit half hearted about that.

That being said, I found a few little mistakes - nothing major, but I thought I should point them out.

Sure, thanks for the feedback.

First: manifestation is an automatic ability for ghosts - they all get it.

DOH! Dunno how I missed that, thanks.

Second: I think the CR value for the pit fiend in the Summoning example is wrong; I did the math four times, and I kept coming up with 2.5 instead of 1. Of course, that section is a little confusing, so I could well be wrong.

Okay well I should add that Anubis pointed out earlier that the monsters used in the Summon examples have the wrong CRs. My mistake, I forgot to update their CRs from an earlier incarnation.

Anyway, the problem you had was that you didn't factor in the number of times the Pit Fiend can summon a Gelugon (which should be CR 20, as given in the list of revised CRs at the back of the document). Note also the Balor should be CR 26.

So CR 25 would be +2.5 CR if it could be used either At Will or at least 5 times per day. The Pit Fiend can summon the Gelugon twice per day which is therefore 2/5ths.

Though at CR 20 for the Gelugon the Pit Fiends rating should be +0.8 CR.

Third: The example CR breakdown for the Barbazu is missing a number - specifically, the CR for Spell-like abilities. It should be 0.05.

DOH! Thanks again.

I think it's rather interesting some of the monsters in the MM break the design parameter rules.

I actually tried to indirectly show a few obvious MM mistakes in the design parameter examples.

Integrated Spell Levels example...see Planetar.
Wealth example...see Solar.

For example, the wraith. 11.01 states that ability score drain should be less than/equal to HD (a creature with 6 HD shouldn't be able to drain more than 3 points on average), and yet we have the wraith (5 HD), which can drain 4 points on average. How do we deal with a monster like that? Adjust it as far as the ability drain, or up the CR?

To be honest I would just leave it.

The design parameters are really there to help, not hinder people.

Of course when they are drammatically broken (as with the Solars Wealth) the CR system cannot be held responsible for mistakes.

 

[Sonofapreacherman]

Greetings Upper_Krust!

That's a decent number of downloads. Word is spreading my friend.

Got some rapid-fire question for you...

1> I assume that "size" is no longer factored into your challenge ratings, or was it overlooked?

2> How would you rate a character with two 0-level apprentice classes at 1st level? Some of those combinations (like the barbarian0/sorcerer0) can painlessly clean up regular 1st level characters.

3> Taking from your Movement and Generic Abilities table, do abilities like Fast Movement (for the barbarian) and darkvision (for dwarves and half-orcs) modify character CR? Or should I assume they are already factored in somewhere?

4> Will low light vision count as +0.1 now?

5> Can your provide CR breakdowns for all the core character races if they are going to be included now?

Thanks a bunch.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Greetings Upper_Krust!

Hiya mate!

That's a decent number of downloads. Word is spreading my friend.

I really hope people 'get' what I am trying to say in the document and that they give it a chance to 'sink in'.

Got some rapid-fire question for you...

Sure fire away.

1> I assume that "size" is no longer factored into your challenge ratings, or was it overlooked?

Size is factored. Its Factor #9 on the list.

2> How would you rate a character with two 0-level apprentice classes at 1st level? Some of those combinations (like the barbarian0/sorcerer0) can painlessly clean up regular 1st level characters.

Mmmm, haven't went over them to be honest. I'll take a look and get back to you tomorrow (I really should get to bed now).

3> Taking from your Movement and Generic Abilities table, do abilities like Fast Movement (for the barbarian) and darkvision (for dwarves and half-orcs) modify character CR? Or should I assume they are already factored in somewhere?

They are already factored into class features.

4> Will low light vision count as +0.1 now?

I see it as being in and around that figure.

5> Can your provide CR breakdowns for all the core character races if they are going to be included now?

I wasn't planning on including what are effectively ECL +0 races. Like I said earlier, none of the core races added +0.5 when I went over them. Therefore they are ECL +0, which means adding them is just going to dilute the rules for no reason.

Thanks a bunch.

Anytime mate.

 

[Alzrius]

Hi U_K! Just some other things I wanted to mention:

The CR listings here don't seem to take psionic powers into account at all. Now, this is mostly understandable, given integrated spellcaster levels (though you would want to put listings there for other spellcasters, and psions and psychic warriors), and spell-like abilities, but I figured things like psionic combat might deserve a mention also.

In the Type/Subtype CR list, I noticed a few things that were a bit puzzling; the Celestial subtype, for instance, only has a listing for acid and cold immunity; but some celestials only have acid and cold resistance 20. Likewise, not all celestials have protective aura. WotC is ultimately at fault here for making what should be a blanket suite of powers so confusing; whats going on is that they're trying to reintroduce the difference between "greater" and "lesser" celestials in terms of power, but they're butchering it somewhat.

Also, Constructs do not have Int and Con scores of 0, they don't have them at all (so the listing should be "-" and not "0"). Same goes for Incorporeal creatures and Str, Oozes and Int, and Undead and Con (and Int for mindless undead). All of those need to be changed from "0" to "-". Also, Plants do not have Int of 0, since many Plant monsters have Int scores (such as tendriculoses, treants, etc).

I also noticed that several types aren't apparently given their type bonuses on the CR configuration. Why isn't it mentioned that Undead and Constructs are immune to subdual damage, critical hits, poisons, sleep, paralysis, diseases, most Fort-save effects, stunning, mind-influencing effects, ability damage or drain, inherent darkvision, etc? Why don't Constructs & Outsiders have it mentioned that they can't be raised or resurrected if destroyed, etc.? Lots of type abilities don't seem to be calculated there.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi U_K!

Hi Alzrius mate!

Just some other things I wanted to mention:

Fire away.

The CR listings here don't seem to take psionic powers into account at all. Now, this is mostly understandable, given integrated spellcaster levels (though you would want to put listings there for other spellcasters, and psions and psychic warriors), and spell-like abilities, but I figured things like psionic combat might deserve a mention also.

Well I have the Psionics Handbook but, while I have read it, I haven't really studied it (if you know what I mean).

In the Type/Subtype CR list, I noticed a few things that were a bit puzzling; the Celestial subtype, for instance, only has a listing for acid and cold immunity; but some celestials only have acid and cold resistance 20. Likewise, not all celestials have protective aura. WotC is ultimately at fault here for making what should be a blanket suite of powers so confusing; whats going on is that they're trying to reintroduce the difference between "greater" and "lesser" celestials in terms of power, but they're butchering it somewhat.

Well I thought if I outlined the 'Greater' Celestial Subtype, then people could simply remove elements where appropriate for 'Lesser' Celestials.

Also, Constructs do not have Int and Con scores of 0, they don't have them at all (so the listing should be "-" and not "0").

Well under the ability score factor they are refered to as 'Unrated Ability Scores'. However, I see the point you are trying to make (someone else mentioned it elsewhere), so I'll address it in future.

Same goes for Incorporeal creatures and Str, Oozes and Int, and Undead and Con (and Int for mindless undead). All of those need to be changed from "0" to "-".

Indeed.

Also, Plants do not have Int of 0, since many Plant monsters have Int scores (such as tendriculoses, treants, etc).

Instead of Int 0 that should read Immune to mind influencing effects.

However, I don't agree that anything with an INT score should automatically be immune to mind affecting effects.

I also noticed that several types aren't apparently given their type bonuses on the CR configuration. Why isn't it mentioned that Undead and Constructs are immune to subdual damage, critical hits, poisons, sleep, paralysis, diseases, most Fort-save effects, stunning, mind-influencing effects, ability damage or drain,

Generally because they're covered under Unrated Ability Scores: Constitution 0 and Intelligence 0.

inherent darkvision, etc?

Admittedly that is a minor oversight that I seem to have made for a number of subtypes.

Why don't Constructs & Outsiders have it mentioned that they can't be raised or resurrected if destroyed, etc.?

I don't see this as a factor, there will always be spells to circumnavigate it.

Lots of type abilities don't seem to be calculated there.

There do seem to be a few I have overlooked (Darkvision for instance).

Also there are a few other factors I should have applied to CON -

Specifically...

Immunity to Critical Hits: +1 CR

However, Constructs should also have...

Does not Naturally Heal: -1 CR

So they will be rated more or less the same (+2.7, when we apply Darkvision).

Undead will actually be rated slightly better than I have credited them.

Thanks for the feedback Alzrius mate, much appreciated.

This weekend I will update the document with all the errata, so keep that feedback coming. Thanks all!

 

[seasong]

Rephrased (and fairly minor) nitpick: Believe it or not, I'm not suggesting that you go through every single feat in the books and assign a CR to them . However, I think that a small comment to the effect of "feats cost 0.2, except when they don't" might be warranted. As it is, the text seems to be saying that feats are feats are feats, as far as +0.2 CR is concerned.

Even a "many feats and special abilities have no appreciable impact on CR, and should not be considered anything more than flavor where combat is concerned. For example, Skill Focus: Herbalism and Special Ability: Can Detect Secret Doors Within 5 ft are both inconsequential in terms of the ability of the PCs to handle the monster in a fight."

 

[Anubis]

I hear that talk of counting ability scores again . . . Grrr . . . Fact is, generally speaking, the ability scores should not be counted. This is ESPECIALLY true for PCs.

The problem is that some people are wanting to abuse the system. THAT is why I advocated counting racial modifiers to ability scores but not standard array ability scores.

If you count the ability scores, the system breaks right at the start (because of low-level character). If you don't count ability scores at all, some munchkins are gonna try to abuse the system. What you need to do is set some REASONABLE parameters regarding the ability scores.

To just count them all the time, however, breaks the system utterly and completely, as I have proven time and again with the low-level examples.

 

[Anubis]

Better yet, allow me to break the break. That was an example of how to break the system in order to make a low-rated monster that is nearly impossible. Now I shall do the opposite and make a low-powered monster that is overrated if you count ability scores.



Persona Diminutive
Medium-Size Magical Beast

Hit Dice: 6d10-18 (hp 15)
Initiative: -3 (-3 Dex)
Speed: 30 ft.
AC: 7 (-3 Dex)
Attacks: 2 claws +3 melee, bite -2 melee
Damage: Claw 1d6-3, bite 1d8-3
Face/Reach: 5 ft. by 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Breath weapon, spell-like abilities
Special Qualities: Immunities, blindsight, fire subtype, SR 18
Saves: Fort +2, Ref +2, Will +2
Abilities: Str 5, Dex 5, Con 5, Int 10, Wis 6, Cha 250
Skills: Escape Artist +509, Listen +8, Search +11, Spot +8
Feats: Alertness, Combat Reflexes, Skill Focus (escape artist), Skill Focus (listen), Skill Focus (search), Skill Focus (spot)

Skills: +500 racial bonus to Escape Artist checks.

Feats: Racial bonus feats include Skill Focus (escape artist), Skill Focus (listen), Skill Focus (search), and Skill Focus (spot)

Breath Weapon (Su): Cone of slow, 30 feet, usable at will; works as per the slow spell, Will DC 10 negates.

Spell-Like Abilities: At will---cure light wounds, cure moderate wounds, cure serious wounds, cure critical wounds, dismissal, heal, greater dispelling, banishment, and sequester. These abilities are as the spells cast by a 6th-level sorcerer (save DC 130 + spell level).

Immunities: Persona Diminutives are immune to ability score drain/loss, critical hits, disease, electricity, energy drain, mind affecting effects, petrification, poison, polymorphing, sleep/paralysis/stunning, enchantment spells, illusion spells, transmutation spells, and conjuration spells.



Shall we calculate the CR now? Okay, IF we DO count the ability scores . . .

Ability Scores +281: CR +28.1
Extra Feats x4: CR +0.8
Hit Dice 6 Magical Beast: CR +3.9
Skill Points +500: CR +10
Breath Weapon Cone of Slow At Will: CR +1
Blindsight: CR +0.5
Ability Score Drain/Loss Immunity: CR +0.5
Critical Hit Immunity: CR +1
Disease Immunity: CR +0.2
Electricity Immunity: CR +1
Evergy Drain Immunity: CR +0.5
Mind Affecting Effect Immunity: +0.5
Petrification Immunity: CR +0.2
Poison Immunity: CR +0.5
Polymorphing Immunity: CR +0.2
Sleep/Paralysis/Stunning Immunity: CR +0.2
Enchantment Spell Immunity: CR +1
Illusion Spell Immunity: CR +1
Transmutation Spell Immunity: CR +1
Conjuration Spell Immunity: CR +1

Spell-Like Abilities:
41 Usable At Will spell levels x 6 (level): CR +0.615

Spell Resistance 18: CR +0.8

Total CR= 54.515 = CR 55/EL 23

Ahem. CR 55? As tough as a Great Wyrm Bronze Dragon? I think not.

I think this shows sufficient proof that just because someone can tweak things to force a break does NOT mean that changes are warranted. As such, factoring in ability scores just because someone CAN break the system would be silly.

Besides, as I said, if you do factor them in, the system breaks all by itself without any tampering. See again the low-level characters.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi seasong mate!

Incidently I have been busy all day (in part painting my grandfathers house for 5 hours), so I haven't had time to get to looking at the Apprentice classes yet Sonofapreacherman mate.

Also if Eldorian is reading I finally realised why my Mass Harm spell seems too powerful. Its because it should be 4 spell levels above Harm, rather than two. Which essentially means that Mass Heal is likewise broken in that respect.

Touch Spell
Ranged Spell = Touch spell level +2
Area/Multiple Targets Spell = Touch spell level +4
Aura Spell = Touch spell level +6
etc.

Rephrased (and fairly minor) nitpick: Believe it or not, I'm not suggesting that you go through every single feat in the books and assign a CR to them .

They are all 'roughly' +0.2, except the ones in the books that need revision. Like I said there were about 10 PHB feats given the treatment. I had those pages in the document but removed them at the last minute for some additional tweaking.

However, I think that a small comment to the effect of "feats cost 0.2, except when they don't" might be warranted. As it is, the text seems to be saying that feats are feats are feats, as far as +0.2 CR is concerned.

Where they don't (relatively speaking) they are either broken or irrelevant.

Even a "many feats and special abilities have no appreciable impact on CR, and should not be considered anything more than flavor where combat is concerned. For example, Skill Focus: Herbalism and Special Ability: Can Detect Secret Doors Within 5 ft are both inconsequential in terms of the ability of the PCs to handle the monster in a fight."

Nevertheless all power is relative.

Coincidently Thanos says exactly that in the latest Marvel Comics cosmic saga "THE END". Thanos was refering to Zeus and Thor (now the All-Father in the comics after Odins demise) who call a meeting of Supreme Deities when the central bad guy shows up and wastes them all (except Zeus and Thor who Gate away just in time)

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Anubis mate!

I hear that talk of counting ability scores again . . . Grrr . . .

Easy Tiger!

Fact is, generally speaking, the ability scores should not be counted. This is ESPECIALLY true for PCs.

The problem is that some people are wanting to abuse the system. THAT is why I advocated counting racial modifiers to ability scores but not standard array ability scores.

If you count the ability scores, the system breaks right at the start (because of low-level character). If you don't count ability scores at all, some munchkins are gonna try to abuse the system. What you need to do is set some REASONABLE parameters regarding the ability scores.

To just count them all the time, however, breaks the system utterly and completely, as I have proven time and again with the low-level examples.

No it doesn't break the system, we already went through all this please don't drag this out again.

The ability scores were removed for brevity more than anything else.

Re: Persona Diminutive

Ahem. CR 55? As tough as a Great Wyrm Bronze Dragon? I think not.

With a CHA 250 it would have undoubtedly recruited the Great Wyrm Bronze Dragon to aid it.