Revised Challenge Ratings/Encounter Levels (pdf)

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Int 10, Wis 6, Cha 250

Hmmm, if he was Lawful-Evil, he could have been Hitler... I think he would just order his 12 Panzer Batalions and 8 Flak Regiments to attack the Great Wyrm.... could always ask for a little help from the Luftwaffe if things got rough....


Good PDF UK, I can sure as hell use it... I hope your not trying to beat my Vampire on Downloads...
 

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Hey Knight Otu mate! :)

Knight Otu said:
An interesting pdf you have there, my friend! :D

Well if you think thats interesting just wait until I unleash the IH... ;)

Knight Otu said:
The font is interesting, but the small letters are "busy", and not really fitting for the font.

Soon as I find a suitable replacement the smallest subheading will be changed.

Knight Otu said:
Did you account for the draconic immunities to paralysis and sleep?

Yes.
 

Hey seasong mate! :)

seasong said:
I certainly didn't mean to instigate one :o.

Thats okay, no harm done. Seemingly you can't give Anubis an inch without him taking a mile. :D

seasong said:
I was more interested in the summoning break (which changing "HD" to "CR" fixes nicely!).

Indeed.

seasong said:
I've been having fun with this system, and had a few more comments:

Sure, fire away (glad you are enjoying it).

seasong said:
1) I know you have examples everywhere, but your writing style is very terse, even in the examples.

I am a designer who writes (rather than the other way around). :p

In part, the above is also due to trying to keep the page count down.

seasong said:
A little more padding and explanation (even of stupid stuff) would help the slow folks like me grasp it, particularly in terms of remembering where and what the rules are.

Anything specific spring to mind?

seasong said:
As it stands, this is not a system I would trust to memory (or even a fast lookup in-game) unless I spent extra time and care memorizing them, instead of just comprehending them.

Well, you don't really need to memorize the CR factors or the Revised CRs. So the only thing you really have to pay attention to is the Encounter Levels. Which, being relative, is pretty simple (I thought anyway!?).

seasong said:
2) For the HD by type section, is there any chance that you might include at some point a breakdown of the individual costs there? HD encompasses BAB progression, saves, and similar things - it would be nice if there was a quick formula for creating a new Type.

I'm sure revealing this will lead to more questions and debate but I suppose I could fit that in (albeit briefly).

seasong said:
3) I finally got a chance to play with the ECL rules. Do you have any rulings on how inherent spell casting interacts with spell casting classes?

I don't have a problem with them stacking but I would put that choice in the lap of the DM.
 


Hi Clay_More mate! :)

Good news I got the Hellsing discs back, if you are at Gencon UK I can give them to you. I think you'll love that show. If you won't be able to make it to Gencon UK I can always post them to you after I get back from London (since I want S'mon to watch them while I'm staying in his house over there).

Clay_More said:
Hmmm, if he was Lawful-Evil, he could have been Hitler... I think he would just order his 12 Panzer Batalions and 8 Flak Regiments to attack the Great Wyrm.... could always ask for a little help from the Luftwaffe if things got rough....

:D

Clay_More said:
Good PDF UK, I can sure as hell use it...

Glad you liked it mate. Seems people are even finding uses for it that I hadn't really thought of (one of the guys over at dicefreaks is using it to plan his prestige classes).

Clay_More said:
I hope your not trying to beat my Vampire on Downloads...

Wouldn't dream of it. What are you at now? (You had over 100 last time I checked)
 

Hi Anabstercorian mate! :)

Anabstercorian said:
Also, how do you rate the Half-Ogre race in Savage Species, out of curiosity?

I had a quick glance, looks like CR/ECL +1.3 (1) unless I am missing something.
 

Anubis-

I think that your argument is fundamentally flawed because the only pertinent argument I have witnessed (though I have not been following the entire saga) is that be rejigging ability scores to either overpower or underpower the said creature, U_K's system can be broken.

Well, quelle surprise!

Any system can be broken if the reductio ad absurdum approach is taken. The magic item creation system can be very heavily abused if this approach is taken, as can any 'point-based' system. Indeed, it is possible to argue (taking your line) that the point-buy ability generation system should not count ability scores. For example, a Fighter who takes Charisma 18, Intelligence 18 and the rest at 8 is clearly inferior to one who buys 16 Strength, 16 Constitution, 12 Dexterity and 10s in the mental abilities. Yet there is no complaint that the former should reflect a 'lower point' character simply because those ability points (or 'CR points') are spent injudiciously.

Indeed, your line of attack could be used on other aspects of what is (by and large- I have not come to this without raising a few concerns of my own!) a decent CR estimation system. For example, I could power-build an extremely powerful 10th level wizard, just as I could build an extremely weak 11th level wizard (by, for example, having a mere 9 Int :)). Your logic would state, therefore, since a counter-example had been found to the maxim that 'in general, higher level=more powerful' than using levels as a component of CR is a nonsense. Do you see? Nearly any component of CR laid out by U_K in which there is some degree of discretion can be made to look foolish- but only by taking extreme examples, such as the Persona Diminutive.

Moreover, your core argument is very difficult to substantiate. Given that (hopefully) most DMs have some degree of judgment, a character such as the Personal Diminutive is unlikely to be built. Rather, if a DM wishes to generate a custom monster, it is clear that a monster with higher ability scores is more powerful than a monster with lower ones. The irrefutable case is one where every one of the monster's ability scores is higher than its opposite. Surely, then, the monster's CR should reflect this increased power.

Essentially, Anubis, your fault is taking an extreme example and then back-extrapolating to say that the system is faulty. Yet anyone can do this to any system. Any system will break down at some extreme. Some counter-example can be found if we delve far enough into the realms of absurdity. The Persona Diminutive does indeed break U_K's CR system. Yet that does not invalidate it for the mainstream.
 

Upper_Krust said:
I am a designer who writes (rather than the other way around). :p

In part, the above is also due to trying to keep the page count down.
Understandable. I tend to be overly wordy, myself :).
Anything specific spring to mind?
Actually, some things might be helped by a table. The list of design guidelines, put into a table, would make it far easier to visually skim for relevant factors. As it is, the eye catches on each one, and has to check the paragraph to make sure it's not relevant before moving on. That's why I missed fast healing, for example.

A table would also help the page count a lot.

Another thing you could do to make things clearer, would be to include the design guideline with each individual item. For example, under 11.10 Fast Healing, you would have a sentence saying "Fast healing should not exceed the creature's HD." Repetition and cross-reference is important in technical writing, which this is :).
Well, you don't really need to memorize the CR factors or the Revised CRs. So the only thing you really have to pay attention to is the Encounter Levels. Which, being relative, is pretty simple (I thought anyway!?).
But I do need to remember (as it is now) that Fast Healing is one of the many items listed in the design guidelines. The problem (as a writer) is that you know the system inside out, and we're trying to read it from the outside in.

I won't have any time to go over it in detail for the next few days (until next week, probably), but I'll do that then and give you a detailed list of areas I found more difficult to read :).

Not impossible, mind - everything is very precisely written (except for the cleric CR note), and can be understood - it's just a matter of how easily.
I'm sure revealing this will lead to more questions and debate but I suppose I could fit that in (albeit briefly).
Well, I don't mean to start a debate on whether it's right or not - the CR modifiers by HD look right to me, I'm just curious how they were constructed.
 

Hey seasong matey! :)

seasong said:
Understandable. I tend to be overly wordy, myself :).

:D

seasong said:
Actually, some things might be helped by a table. The list of design guidelines, put into a table, would make it far easier to visually skim for relevant factors. As it is, the eye catches on each one, and has to check the paragraph to make sure it's not relevant before moving on. That's why I missed fast healing, for example.

A table would also help the page count a lot.

Sold. ;)

seasong said:
Another thing you could do to make things clearer, would be to include the design guideline with each individual item. For example, under 11.10 Fast Healing, you would have a sentence saying "Fast healing should not exceed the creature's HD." Repetition and cross-reference is important in technical writing, which this is :).But I do need to remember (as it is now) that Fast Healing is one of the many items listed in the design guidelines. The problem (as a writer) is that you know the system inside out, and we're trying to read it from the outside in.

I don't know about this though. I really want to keep the design parameters seperate. As we saw earlier in this thread some people were asking 'do we change things if they don't meet the parameters'. I think this could confuse more than help

seasong said:
I won't have any time to go over it in detail for the next few days (until next week, probably), but I'll do that then and give you a detailed list of areas I found more difficult to read :).

I'll have the revision done by tomorrow I think.

But I'll see you when you get back from whatever it is your going to be doing. Have fun. :)

seasong said:
Not impossible, mind - everything is very precisely written (except for the cleric CR note),

Sorted.

seasong said:
and can be understood - it's just a matter of how easily. Well, I don't mean to start a debate on whether it's right or not - the CR modifiers by HD look right to me, I'm just curious how they were constructed.

I'll do that in the morning.
 

For the caps+letters effect, I have attached an MS Word document that shows one way to do it that does not involve "illegibility" ;). It's not very fancy. It certainly isn't using the right fonts (I went with the fonts on my work computer :(). And you may look at it and decide that it doesn't suit your purposes :p.

But I had a few minutes, had the idea, and decided to toss it out there and see if it would work for you. If not, no hard feelings, and I'll see if I can think of something else.
 

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