Revised Challenge Ratings/Encounter Levels (pdf)

[Anubis]

No it doesn't break the system, we already went through all this please don't drag this out again.

Yes it does. I've proven it over and over. A Level 1 character with higher ability scores is NOT the same challenge as a CR 2 or CR 3 monster. Normal Level 1 characters are ALWAYS CR 1.

The ability scores were removed for brevity more than anything else.

Hahaha . . . Like I said, it's broken at the lower levels. You cite how fragile such characters are. Sorry, but that MUST be considered in a system where such a factor is so important.

Re: Persona Diminutive

With a CHA 250 it would have undoubtedly recruited the Great Wyrm Bronze Dragon to aid it.

Wow you really like grasping at straws, don't you? How would he accomplish this? It's a magical beast, it has no form of communication, and it has no skill or feat that allows it to recruit the dragon to begin with. There is no way this thing could recruit the dragon. Besides, what if it can't even find such a dragon? Seriously . . . You can't base arguments on variable in-game factors such as recruiting.

Look, I've shown time and again why ability scores should not be counted, and no one has yet to show any REAL reason why they should be counted (munchkin game-breakers don't count). Plus I have always been fine with counting racial ability score modifiers, just not the standard array. I have proven that such a thing completely fixes all problems both with counting the scores AND not counting the scores, as it leaves PCs at CR 1 while allowing monsters with unusually high scores to be factored into such an equation.

All the proof is with me here and I've shown it time and again. I don't understand how anyone could possibly deny the facts I have presented over and over. Ability scores SHOULD NOT BE COUNTED.

 

[Anabstercorian]

You DO realize that this creature has a Charisma of 250? That could convince most greater deities to wash its body with their tongue. The words of the creature would be law, and it would command the allegiance of all who heard its Word.

And frankly, it's not the ability scores that break it. It's the dozen or so immunities that are nigh-irrelevant given the fact that it has 15 hitpoints and no DR.

 

[Anabstercorian]

All the proof is with me here and I've shown it time and again. I don't understand how anyone could possibly deny the facts I have presented over and over. Ability scores SHOULD NOT BE COUNTED.

Anubis, I'm going to be blatantly rude.

Your arguments really, really, really suck. They are not proof. You are consistently vituperative and belligerent, while Upper Krust provides thoughtful, well reasoned arguments. If you're going to defend this position, fine, that's great. Do it WELL, not like this.

 

[Eldorian]

Anubis, you use a different definition of proof than I do I guess... Ability scores are OF COURSE pertinent to CR. As our straight 18s compared to straight 10s level 5 fighter proved. It may not be that straight 18s equate to 4 levels, but the fact remains that the 18s guy could whump any 2nd level straight 10s guy, so those stats are worth at least 1 CR.

As for your little magic beast.. I believe there should be something in the design suggestions that will make sure that no one modifier should be worth more than half the CR of a creature, except hit dice. This would eliminate most silly suggestions of monsters with extremely weak feats and worthless stats that artificially push up the CR, like a charisma of 250 on a 6 HD magical beast.

And UK, about the harm spell. My friendly DMG list of suggestions for creating spells suggest that a level 6, single target divine spell should deal no more than 15 dice of damage. Since it is a touch spell, we could prehaps upgrade it to 20 dice of damage. The dice are assumed to be d6s. 150 points of damage is much higher than 20d6, which has average 70. Maybe harm should be 5 Hp per level, or a d6 per level?

To make mass harm out of harm using metamagics, you'd have to Reach Spell and then Chain Spell it, which would make it a level 11 spell. Or you could compare it to a benchmark level 8 wizard spell, such as Horrid Wilting, and reduce it's power slightly to indicate that it's a cleric spell, and make it deal d6s per level to the targets within the radius. Although, I believe both Mass Harm and Mass Heal are rule breaking spells (and heal and harm for that matter). Compare them to Healing Circle and Circle of Doom, which deal 1d8+level to creatures in range, and must be centered on the caster, and are level 5 spells. For just 3 spell levels we all of a sudden deal 200 points of healing/damage? up from something like 20 points for a 5th level spell?

Heal and Harm just don't fit the mold. For levels 1-10 a cleric heals xd8+level where x is the spell level, and all of a sudden he heals 110 points at level 11, which, compared to 6d8+11 (average 38) is a huge upgrade. And heal has a huge list of amazingly useful side effects, like poison, dissease, temp ability damage etc etc.

Personally, after giving it some thought, I think the fault may lay in both spells, with heal being overpowered, and the cure spells underpowered. At least part of the reason clerics are so powerful in 3e is to make them more attractive to players that don't want to just heal. A decent alterative to making them so powerful would be to increase the power of healing spells so they are powerful enough to barely tax the abilities of the cleric. Perhaps if they did 1d6 per caster level instead... hmm.. 4e i guess =)


anyways, talk to ya latre

Eldorian Antar

 

[Cheiromancer]

I don't think Anubis is being rude. I read it more as enthusiastic. But it is notoriously hard to tell on a message board- the lack of body language and verbal cues really create a lot of ambiguity.

But, Anabstercorian, I think you are right to call Anubis's attention to how his posts sound. I would also like to add that using upper caps is likely to make a post sound very belligerent.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Anubis mate!

See the discord you have caused in the space of two posts.

I knew we were in for stormy weather as soon as I saw you trying to make a mountain out of a molehill with regards seasongs innocent query that maybe sometimes ability scores should be factored. There simply was no cause for your diatribe.

While I agree with Cheiromancer that it is your enthusiasm that often gets the better of you, try to be cool, if anything for my sake...I don't want a coronary.

Upper_Krust seemingly talking to himself
No it doesn't break the system, we already went through all this please don't drag this out again.

Did you manage to understand this line or must I translate it into UPPER CASE!?

We already have hundreds of posts on this matter in the other threads. I am sure we have covered everything we are going to say on it. If you want to shroud yourself in that debate I suggest you reread them rather than beginning the whole thing over again.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Eldorian mate!

Anubis, you use a different definition of proof than I do I guess... Ability scores are OF COURSE pertinent to CR. As our straight 18s compared to straight 10s level 5 fighter proved. It may not be that straight 18s equate to 4 levels, but the fact remains that the 18s guy could whump any 2nd level straight 10s guy, so those stats are worth at least 1 CR.

Lets just shelve the ability scores discussion unless anyone has some startling revelations on the matter.

As for your little magic beast.. I believe there should be something in the design suggestions that will make sure that no one modifier should be worth more than half the CR of a creature, except hit dice. This would eliminate most silly suggestions of monsters with extremely weak feats and worthless stats that artificially push up the CR, like a charisma of 250 on a 6 HD magical beast.

I was thinking along the same lines, I'll see what I can come up with by way of design parameters.

And UK, about the harm spell. My friendly DMG list of suggestions for creating spells suggest that a level 6, single target divine spell should deal no more than 15 dice of damage. Since it is a touch spell, we could prehaps upgrade it to 20 dice of damage. The dice are assumed to be d6s. 150 points of damage is much higher than 20d6, which has average 70. Maybe harm should be 5 Hp per level, or a d6 per level?

I'm thinking it should maybe be a d10 (max 15d10). That way you can still get the 150 by maximising it, or do different things with metamagic.

To make mass harm out of harm using metamagics, you'd have to Reach Spell and then Chain Spell it, which would make it a level 11 spell.

Slay Living (Touch)
Finger of Death (Ray)
Wail of the Banshee (Ranged Area)

Or you could compare it to a benchmark level 8 wizard spell, such as Horrid Wilting, and reduce it's power slightly to indicate that it's a cleric spell, and make it deal d6s per level to the targets within the radius.

It should be 10th-level, but perhaps we could make a 9th-level version (or possibly 8th-level even?) by reducing the effects.

9th = d8s
8th = d6s
7th = d4s
6th = d3s
5th = 1/Level (a lot like Healing Circle)

So therefore an 8th-level Mass Harm should deal d6s, as should Mass Heal.

What do you think?

 

[Knight Otu]

An interesting pdf you have there, my friend!

The font is interesting, but the small letters are "busy", and not really fitting for the font.

Did you account for the draconic immunities to paralysis and sleep?

 

[seasong]

I knew we were in for stormy weather as soon as I saw you trying to make a mountain out of a molehill with regards seasongs innocent query that maybe sometimes ability scores should be factored. There simply was no cause for your diatribe.

I certainly didn't mean to instigate one . I was more interested in the summoning break (which changing "HD" to "CR" fixes nicely!).

I've been having fun with this system, and had a few more comments:

1) I know you have examples everywhere, but your writing style is very terse, even in the examples. A little more padding and explanation (even of stupid stuff) would help the slow folks like me grasp it, particularly in terms of remembering where and what the rules are. As it stands, this is not a system I would trust to memory (or even a fast lookup in-game) unless I spent extra time and care memorizing them, instead of just comprehending them.

2) For the HD by type section, is there any chance that you might include at some point a breakdown of the individual costs there? HD encompasses BAB progression, saves, and similar things - it would be nice if there was a quick formula for creating a new Type.

3) I finally got a chance to play with the ECL rules. Do you have any rulings on how inherent spell casting interacts with spell casting classes?

 

[Knight Otu]

3) I finally got a chance to play with the ECL rules. Do you have any rulings on how inherent spell casting interacts with spell casting classes?

If I understand what you mean, the official ruling is, IIRC, that inherent caster levels stack with class caster levels (but everything else is based of actual class levels, such as domain effects, undead turning, familiar abilities etc...). That should be notedd in the "Intermediate" monster section of SavSpe.