Revised CRs/ECLs continuation thread

[kreynolds]

UK,

Got a question for ya' about Energy Drain, Ability Drain, and Ability Damage (otherwise ability drain without the permanent option) in your preview PDF. Do your breakdowns assume that these abilities can only be used once per round, even if they are used with a melee attack, like a vampire's slam attack? I presume they are. If so, what about if the ability works with each successful melee attack? Should you just calculate the total CR modifier as normal and then multiply that by the number of attacks the creature can make in a full attack action that is applicable to the draining ability?

Thanks!

 

[Upper_Krust]

UK,

Hiya mate!

Got a question for ya' about Energy Drain, Ability Drain, and Ability Damage (otherwise ability drain without the permanent option) in your preview PDF.

...and massively changed in Version 4.

Do your breakdowns assume that these abilities can only be used once per round, even if they are used with a melee attack, like a vampire's slam attack? I presume they are. If so, what about if the ability works with each successful melee attack? Should you just calculate the total CR modifier as normal and then multiply that by the number of attacks the creature can make in a full attack action that is applicable to the draining ability?

Thanks!

Actually the way this works in version 4 is that you total any special abilities that can stack and be used more than once in the same round.

Here is the text straight out of V4

***

For creatures that can ply the same special attack more than once per round, multiply the cost by the number of times it can be used only if its effects stack with itself.

eg. Ghoul: 3 attacks/round with Paralysis Touch. Paralysis does not stack with itself so only rate the ability once.

eg. Five-Headed Pyrohydra: 5 possible breath attacks/round dealing 3d6 fire damage. The fire damage stacks with itself so you total the effects; in this case treat as 15d6 energy damage.

***

Incidently things like Ability Score Loss (Damage/Drain) and Energy Drain (among many others) are rated differently in version 4 - so don't be going by previous versions.

 

[kreynolds]

For creatures that can ply the same special attack more than once per round, multiply the cost by the number of times it can be used only if its effects stack with itself.

That's what I figured. Thanks!

Incidently things like Ability Score Loss (Damage/Drain) and Energy Drain (among many others) are rated differently in version 4 - so don't be going by previous versions.

I'm not. I'm actually rating them myself. The numbers you have in version 3 come out too low. Incidentally, how do you rate them in version 4?

 

[kreynolds]

UK,

If you're interested, here's how I'm currently rating Ability Damage. If you have any input, I fully welcome it. Remember though, that this is for Level Adjustment, or in other words, WotC ECL.

Ability Damage
+0.75 (base) +0.25/point of ability score damage (use average)
+0.75 additional if the ability is Constitution

Examples
A) 2 points of Strength damage on a successful melee attack, once per round = +1.25
B) 1d6 points of Strength damage on a successful melee attack, once per round = +1.625
C) 1 point of Strength damage on a successful melee attack, up to four times per round = +1.75
***Closest to cost of wealth required for +1 wounding weapon (+1.3)***
D) 2 points of Strength damage on a successful melee attack, up to four times per round = +2.75

By the way, the "+0.75 extra if Con" is a WotC thing, and its only in there so that I could play around with it and see if I want to keep it. Anyway, what do you think?

 

[kreynolds]

Hey UK,

If you're interested, here's how I'm figuring up the LA for DR in 3.5 now...

Damage Reduction

Damage Reduction Values
+0.165/point of damage reduced

Damage Reduction Levels
Magic +0.11
Material +0.33
Alignment +0.33
Epic +2.33

When combining damage reduction level types using the OR factor, the highest level is halved then added to the first level. For example, silver adds +0.33, but if it is combined with an alignment, such as good, the alignment level is halved and added to the magic level, thus giving a total addition to LA of +0.495 (+0.33 for silver, plus +0.33/2 for good). When combining damage reduction level types using the AND factor, the levels are simply added together. Thus silver AND good would add +0.66 to LA.

Epic level damage reduction works differently. When combining epic level damage reduction with any other level and using the OR factor, reduce the epic level modifier by the level you are combining it with. For example, while epic level damage reduction is worth +2.33 on its own, it is worth only +2.0 when combined with silver using the OR factor (such as DR X/epic or silver). Otherwise, calculate the modifier as normal. For example, when combined with silver using the AND factor, the total damage reduction LA modifier would be +2.66 (for DR X/epic and silver).

Examples
DR 5/magic +0.935
DR 5/silver +1.155
DR 5/silver or magic +1.1
DR 5/silver and magic +1.265
DR 5/silver or evil +1.32
DR 5/silver and evil +1.485
DR 5/epic +2.33
DR 5/epic or silver +2.0
DR 5/epic and silver +2.66

DR 5/cold-iron and evil would add +1.485 to LA, while DR 20/cold-iron and evil would add +3.96 to LA.

Barbarian-Type Damage Reduction (not hardness!)
+0.3/point of damage reduced

DR 5/— would add +1.5 to LA, while DR 20/— would add +6.0 to LA.


What do ya' think?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya mate!

The numbers you have in version 3 come out too low. Incidentally, how do you rate them in version 4?

Ability Damage = +0.15/point
Ability Drain = +0.2/point

Energy Drain = +0.4/level

Remember to multiply for multiple attacks with the special ability); also there are a few multipliers based on the delivery method; Ray x2; Breath x3; Gaze x4 etc.

 

[Upper_Krust]

UK,

If you're interested, here's how I'm currently rating Ability Damage. If you have any input, I fully welcome it. Remember though, that this is for Level Adjustment, or in other words, WotC ECL.

Well WotC ECL more or less parallels my CR.

So lets take a look.

Ability Damage
+0.75 (base) +0.25/point of ability score damage (use average)

Personally I think this is too high.

Also you haven't made any distinction between Ability Damage and Drain.

+0.75 additional if the ability is Constitution

I rate all abilities the same. Its far more convenient and unless you are going to make gaining Con more difficult/expensive than other abilities I don't think you should make losing Con more costly.

Examples
A) 2 points of Strength damage on a successful melee attack, once per round = +1.25
B) 1d6 points of Strength damage on a successful melee attack, once per round = +1.625
C) 1 point of Strength damage on a successful melee attack, up to four times per round = +1.75
***Closest to cost of wealth required for +1 wounding weapon (+1.3)***
D) 2 points of Strength damage on a successful melee attack, up to four times per round = +2.75

Interesting parallel with the Wounding weapon special ability. Personally I rate each enchantment bonus or special ability bonus equal to a feat; therefore +0.2.

However, the Wounding special ability is slightly different from standard Ability Loss attacks. Firstly a Critical Hit does not multiply the weapons effects; secondly the wielder does not gain hit points back from the damage/drain. However, the weapon does allow iteritive attacks.

So if we assume the weapon ability is +0.4. Its really the same as four ability point damages (four being maximum natural attacks with the weapon). So 4 x +0.15 = +0.6, however remember that you don't get the stacking on critical hits and you don't get the hit points from dealing the damage, hence my reduction.

By the way, the "+0.75 extra if Con" is a WotC thing, and its only in there so that I could play around with it and see if I want to keep it. Anyway, what do you think?

I think in trying to make these abilities less accessible to players (in terms of ECL) you may have overated them, something I think I was guilty of myself when I initially came to rate them.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey UK,

Hello again mate!

If you're interested, here's how I'm figuring up the LA for DR in 3.5 now...

Sure fire away.

Damage Reduction

***SNIP***

What do ya' think?

Okay, firstly I think it is overtly and unnecessarily fidgety.

Here is Damage Reduction straight out of Version 4 (I hope the Table doesn't disperse):

***

13.04 Damage Reduction
CR +0.1/point of damage reduced

Table 1-6: Modifiers to Damage Reduction
Damage Reduction
defeated by Example Modifier
Multiple Elements Babau x1/4
Single Element Zombie x1/2
Adamantine or Epic Element Iron Golem x1
Combination of Elements Lich x1
Combination of Elements* Solar x1.5
Can’t be defeated by any Elements Mummy x2
*including either Adamantine, Epic, or both.

eg. Babau (DR 10/cold iron or good) = CR +0.25 (1 x 1/4)
Zombie (DR 5/slashing) = CR +0.25 (0.5 x 1/2)
Iron Golem (DR 15/adamantine) = CR +1.5 (1.5 x 1)
Lich (DR 15/bludgeoning and magic) = CR +1.5 (1.5 x 1)
Solar (DR 15/epic and evil) = CR +2.25 (1.5 x 1.5)
Mummy (DR 5/-) = CR +1 (0.5 x 2)

***

Edit: okay the table totally dispersed when I tried copy and paste - thats what you get for making me post instead of waiting for version 4.

 

[kreynolds]

Well WotC ECL more or less parallels my CR.

Sort of. Something I noticed though that you might find interesting: Two-thirds of your CR generally equals WotC CR, right? Well, four-fifths of your CR tends to be really close to WotC ECL/LA. Just a neat little factoid.

Personally I think this is too high.

I really didn't think it was, but I'll take a look at it again. Perhaps the problem is the base modifier (which I really like using, as most abilities lose a lot of their punch as levels go up)...

Also you haven't made any distinction between Ability Damage and Drain.

Actually, I did. I just didn't post it. Besides, no distinction is neccessary in the formula. While a distinction must be made between the two when referring generically to "ability score loss", no distinction is neccessary in the formula between damage and drain, as the mechanics are completely different, and as such, I use two different formulae.

I rate ability drain using a separate formula (of which the base modifier might also be a problem, so I'll take a look at that).

I rate all abilities the same. Its far more convenient and unless you are going to make gaining Con more difficult/expensive than other abilities I don't think you should make losing Con more costly.

Generally, so do I. Like I said, mostly it was just to figure out why it was there in the first place. After fiddling with it this morning, I can't come up with any reason, so I'm snipping it out.

Interesting parallel with the Wounding weapon special ability. Personally I rate each enchantment bonus or special ability bonus equal to a feat; therefore +0.2.

I'm not so sure about that. The ability to deal ability score damage goes beyond the power of a feat, IMO. After all, with the wounding property at +2, when was the last time you saw a feat bestow flaming burst at will once per round? Do you disagree?

I also rate bonus feats at LA +0.3/per extra feat, but that's another discussion for another time.

However, the Wounding special ability is slightly different from standard Ability Loss attacks.

True.

Firstly a Critical Hit does not multiply the weapons effects;

Yup. That's a good point, but I still don't recall seeing a feat that bestows flaming or frost at will once per round.

secondly the wielder does not gain hit points back from the damage/drain.

Creature's rarely ever get hit points back for ability damage. That usually only happens with ability drain. Remember, they are two very different abilities with very different effects. Ability damage is temporary in the same way that hit points come back over time. Ability drain is permanent, and the creature usually gets something back for inflicting it.

However, the weapon does allow iteritive attacks.

Which is one thing that most certainly pushes it beyond the power of a feat, IMO.

So if we assume the weapon ability is +0.4. Its really the same as four ability point damages (four being maximum natural attacks with the weapon). So 4 x +0.15 = +0.6, however remember that you don't get the stacking on critical hits and you don't get the hit points from dealing the damage, hence my reduction.

I understand the critical part, but ability damage does not automatically give you hit points in return. You're thinking of ability drain.

I think in trying to make these abilities less accessible to players (in terms of ECL) you may have overated them, something I think I was guilty of myself when I initially came to rate them.

But I'm not trying to make them less accessible. In fact, that's one thing that I hate about how WotC tends to treat special abilities. I'm simply trying to rate it fairly based upon its usefulness for a PC. Like I said, the base modifier I use may be too high, and that might be the problem. If you're interested though, here's the original formula I was using for Ability Damage (+0.5 (base) +0.15/point of ability damage).

 

[kreynolds]

Hiya mate!

Howdy. Thanks for replying.

Ability Damage = +0.15/point

Wild. That's the same that I used for my original formula (though I also included the same base posted above, but again, it might be too high).

Ability Drain = +0.2/point

I don't know. Seeing as how drain is much more potent than damage, I think I'd have to rate it at least 50%, maybe even 75%, higher than damage.

Energy Drain = +0.4/level

That seems fair, though I include a +0.5 base modifier as well.

Remember to multiply for multiple attacks with the special ability);

Definately, and thinks for lending me a hand with that.

also there are a few multipliers based on the delivery method; Ray x2; Breath x3; Gaze x4 etc.

Right, I just didn't bother posting them. I notice that you've gone to multipliers now? Is that just to simply the math? I tried that at some point but it just felt to clunky.