Revised CRs/ECLs continuation thread

[Upper_Krust]

Revised (Optional) Size

Hi all!

If you haven't already seen it, take a look at the 3.5 Titan:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20030615c

(Incidently I rate it at CR 27.46 by my reckoning, but thats not what I want to talk about.)

I have been growing increasingly annoyed with the official Size/Base Damage rules so I will probably include these optional rules in the Appendices of the IH.

Fine: 1 on crit
Diminutive: 1
Tiny: 1d2
Small: 1d4
Medium: 1d8
Large: 2d8
Huge: 4d8
Gargantuan: 8d8
Colossal: 16d8

Slam: Crushing Damage
Gore: Piercing Damage
Claw: Slashing Damage
Bite: All of the above.

I am sure there are a few other nuances to iron out, but in the meantime any comments?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Sorcica mate!

Yeah, I ignored the skill bonus - so small.

True.

And no, Ogres do not get darkvision. My bad

It can be difficult keeping track of the minutiae...as long as you get the salient points covered you shouldn't have too many problems.

Thanks for the reply, UK.

Anytime mate!

Seems that I'm getting the system after all.

I do like a happy ending.

But then I don't get Anubis' numbers

Could be anything, maybe he typed it up wrong, happens to the best of us.

BTW, I think that if I claimed that a Ogre only was ECL 4 over on the Wizards boards, there would be an uprising. Maybe it's a little too low?

Its plausible I could have rated the size modifier incorrectly, but I don't think so...?

I think its simply a matter of specialisation.

Obviously the Ogre specialises in the more visceral area of combat but the Dex, Int and Cha penalties could hurt it in the long run. If people play combat heavy/roleplaying lite campaigns then you could certainly make a case that the ECL should be higher.

The Ogre character is certainly likely to attract the majority of attention from enemies (certainly at low-mid levels); equipment is going to be harder to come by*; Transport is going to be an issue at low-mid levels.

*Unless you buy into the 'All magic items resize' nonsense.

Honestly, thinking of it, I don't think so. But there sure is a big difference between ECL 4 as suggested by you and ECL 6 as suggested by wizards...

Initially I thought it looked a 5.

I seem to recall WotC's system in Savage Species rated it a 7, but they reduced it by 1.

Later

Cya mate.

 

[Ashardalon]

And no, Ogres do not get darkvision. My bad

Aaactually, from the SRD:

Giant
Giant: A giant is a humanoid creature of great strength, usually of at least Large size. Giants are proficient with all simple weapons and with any weapons listed in their entries. Unless noted otherwise, giants have darkvision with a range of 60 feet.
Hit Die: d8
Attack Bonus: Total HDx3/4 (as cleric)
Good Saving Throws: Fortitude
Skill Points: +1 per extra HD
Feats: +1 per 4 extra HD

Thankfully, the R3E MM will apparently spell such things out explicitly. That should help reduce the confusion.

 

[Anubis]

Anubis

Could you please elaborate something for me?
One of my players would like to play either a Bugbear or an Ogre. So I calculated their CR to find the ECL (adding wealth). And just to make sure, I checked them with your CR's, posted on p. 6 of this thread.
You mark the Bugbear at CR 2.15 and the Ogre at CR 4.2.

I get:

BUGBEAR

3 hum. HD: +1.65 CR
Nat. Armor: +0.3 CR
Darkvis.: +0.2 CR
Stat Mods: +0.6 CR
Total: +2.75 CR

and

OGRE

4 giant HD: +2.2 CR
Nat. Armor: +0.5 CR
Darkvis.: +0.2 CR
Large: +1.5 CR
Stat Mod outside parameters for L size: -0.6 CR
Total: +3.8 CR

So what am I screwing up? UK has confirmed (somewhere in this thread) that only stat mods outside the parameters for size affect CR. So I don't get it.

I think that I'm right with the Bugbear, as 3 lvls of wealth will add up to CR 3.35 - fine for a PC.

However, CR 3.8 for the Ogre is too low. Here, the 4.2 is much better, as 5 lvls of wealth will give CR 5.2 - fine for a PC.

What am I missing. Thanks in advance for any reply.

Others are of course welcome to add their comments as well.

First off, ogres don't have darkvision.

Second, I don't count ANY ability score modifiers unless they are well outside the norm.

As I said, UK may disagree with some of my numbers as the system forces some judgment calls that he and I deal with differently. I would say you'll be okay using the 2.15 and 4.2 and just adding for wealth and levels as necessary.

 

[Sonofapreacherman]

Well this was timing...

First off, ogres don't have darkvision.

I guess you guys posted at the same time.

 

[Matrix Sorcica]

First off, ogres don't have darkvision.

Second, I don't count ANY ability score modifiers unless they are well outside the norm.

As I said, UK may disagree with some of my numbers as the system forces some judgment calls that he and I deal with differently. I would say you'll be okay using the 2.15 and 4.2 and just adding for wealth and levels as necessary.

okie dokie

Thanks for the reply.

 

[Anubis]

Wow, I NEVER ONCE saw that about giants having darkvision. They better damn well start spelling things out per monster! Geez! What an annoyance!

By the way, UK, I DO know that ogres don't get -0.1 for speed. They aren't slow, they're wearing medium armor. See the errata for this clarification.

 

[Sonofapreacherman]

*Prods Upper_Krust with a cross-continental stick.*

How's version 4 coming along?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Anubis mate!

Wow, I NEVER ONCE saw that about giants having darkvision. They better damn well start spelling things out per monster! Geez! What an annoyance!

By the way, UK, I DO know that ogres don't get -0.1 for speed. They aren't slow, they're wearing medium armor. See the errata for this clarification.

Do either of us know these rules at all!?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya mate!

*Prods Upper_Krust with a cross-continental stick.*

How's version 4 coming along?

Well I am about halfway through revising the CRs (which is the main hurdle at this point); there are a few other things to worry about and I'll want to do some extensive reading and testing before I post it this time.

I am currently considering a Damage mechanic and incorporating a rule for creatures with attacks fewer than a Fighter equal to their Hit Dice.

I'm also not sure if I'll include the Feats and Spells section this time.

Oh and forget about the above Optional Size/Damage rules - they throw off the relationship between Damage and Hit Dice too much. So its no point incorporating doubling damage unless you start incorporating quadrupling Hit Dice...then you start a whole sequence of events which are better left alone.