Revised CRs/ECLs continuation thread

[Coredump]

I have to agree with Otu,
The UK system is about complete relative abilities; it is *not* about how difficult are they to beat. There are a lot of things that really wouldn't matter in a battle, yet are factored in. This is the whole crux of his method(At least as I understand it), that CR should be independent of foe.

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[Sonofapreacherman]

I have to agree with Otu,
The UK system is about complete relative abilities; it is *not* about how difficult are they to beat. There are a lot of things that really wouldn't matter in a battle, yet are factored in. This is the whole crux of his method(At least as I understand it), that CR should be independent of foe.

Well said.

 

[Anubis]

Well you wanna talk relative, how about the fact that neither Darkvision NOR Scent are worth as much as ANY other +0.2 things in the system? Observe:

1 Feat
+10 Skills
+20 Speed
20 Fire Resistance
Improved Grab
Constrict
Cast Fireball AND Slay Living AT WILL (as 10th level)
Touch Attack dealing 2d8+1 Sonic Damage
Attack that does Chill Touch
Half Damage from Slashing Weapons

Need I go on? Didn't think so. Checkmate!

If you really MUST rate these two, make them like 0.05 each or something. 0.2 is not a miniscule increase, it's a fifth of a level. These aren't worth more than 5% of a level.

 

[Coredump]

Anubis, I realize you love to claim that you are right. (ala 'checkmate') but your own statement proves our point, not yours. Your logic was that it should not be included because it was not a help in a fight; that is what was flawed; and that is what you admitted. No one was commenting on the .2 adjustment, just the logic you used.

There are plenty of times where 2 points of N armor is not much of a difference, or being able to fly +20ft/rnd, or a point of deflection, etc. But they are included, because it is meant to be irrelevent of encounter, and a measuer of total power. Also, I would move that the above is no more useful than scent/darkvision, and worth the same amount. but YMMV.

I am not sure if .2 is the right amount for Darkvision or scent. But they do sound like they could be pretty helpful. many parties kinda rely on invisibility, and scent really hurts that. Also, darkvision makes it a lot easier to sneak up on the party.... Just not sure.


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[Knight Otu]

Need I go on? Didn't think so. Checkmate!

Unless of course, some of these values are out of whack.

I guess I'd take scent as similar powerful to the feat or the +10 to skills. Maybe also the +20 to speed, but that's doubtful. The other abilities have a more direct impact on combat, which lets them appear quite powerful, but might not be. The abilities that IMHO are far more powerful than scent would only be these four:

Cast Fireball AND Slay Living AT WILL (as 10th level)
Touch Attack dealing 2d8+1 Sonic Damage
Attack that does Chill Touch
Half Damage from Slashing Weapons

I already said that I could see a decrease to darkvision. I'm not yet convinced on scent.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi all!

I much prefer to rate everything in CR then sort it all out with EL. So I don't think ignoring abilities is the answer.

However, if some of you have issues with some of the factors then by all means lets get it all out in the open.

If there are incongruities then I am happy to see evidence and listen to suggestion for solutions.

For spell-like abilities, remember the Design Parameters limitations.

The Touch Attack remember supplants physical damage.

Half Damage from a single weapon type may admittedly be rated too low. It should be +0.33 (as in V.4).

Half Damage from all weapon types is +1, the same as only being hit 50% of the time (as with Incorporeality).

Generally, when rating a relatively weak ability I try to see if it would make a worthwhile feat.

For spell-like abilities, perhaps each At Will/Always Active ability should add +0.2 (on top of the rating) - the feat 'Innate Spell' (in Tome & Blood) lets you use a single spell at will. However, the spell must be 8 slots lower than you can cast.

This would mean the Pit Fiend (21 At Will abilities) would have an additional +4.2 CR mod. Perhaps this should only be used for ECL in fact?

Any comments?

 

[Matrix Sorcica]

This would mean the Pit Fiend (21 At Will abilities) would have an additional +4.2 CR mod. Perhaps this should only be used for ECL in fact?

Any comments?

I agree on this. I have stated earlier, that at will abilities were rated to low for ECL purposes. I think my example was that regeneration 1 would rate something like +2.1 ECL whereas Heal at will only would rate +2.45 ECL or something.

Clearly, the ability to use heal and fx. fireball at will should rate higher than is currently the case, at least for ECL purposes, IMO.

 

[Anubis]

Scent does not help much AT ALL against invisible creatures. You can only pinpoint if you get right next to them! As for Darkvision, I still have yet to EVER see Darkvision do ANYTHING useful. It's nothing more than "good vision", just like Scent is nothing more than "good smell". Low-Light Vision is ignored, so Darkvision and Scent should be as well as they are no more useful. The stirge's Attach also falls under the useless category. These things have little impact on the game PERIOD, not just combat purposes.

 

[Sonofapreacherman]

Just the other night, some hobgoblins snuck up on the party and surrounded them. Because the hobgoblins didn't need a lantern for illumination, they were able to silently coordinate their attack and completely surprise the party. Darkvision almost singularly defined the hobgoblin combat advantage.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Sorcica mate!

I agree on this. I have stated earlier, that at will abilities were rated to low for ECL purposes. I think my example was that regeneration 1 would rate something like +2.1 ECL whereas Heal at will only would rate +2.45 ECL or something.

Clearly, the ability to use heal and fx. fireball at will should rate higher than is currently the case, at least for ECL purposes, IMO.

True. I think ECL +0.2/Spell-like Ability (At Will/Always Active) is probably right. With possibly +0.04/use up to x5.


Regarding the whole Darkvision and Scent Issue, I think they should stay at +0.2.

I just checked and Scent is in the feat list in the Masters of the Wild splatbook. I am sure Darkvision is a feat somewhere, I just can't recall where.