Revised CRs/ECLs - Thread #3

[Eldorian]

Eldorian, I had a question about your SR system posted here:
http://www.enworld.org/forums/showpost.php?p=880090&postcount=42

For drow, the SR would remain constant around 10. Doesn't this mean that against opponents with equal EL, a drow has a 45/55 chance against magic? Doesn't that seem terribly high?

Compartively, with old SR, an opponent of equal level as the drow would always penetrate SR... am I wrong?

ciaran

Hello Ciaran.

First off, that link lead me to one of the few posts where I agreed with Anubis, not my proposal of an SR system. But I was able to quickly find my SR system, and remmember exactly what I proposed.

In my copy of the MM, drow have 11 + class level of SR. This translates to a 50% chance of not being affected by a spell cast by a spell caster of equal class level as the drow, baring feats or other effects. In the system I proposed, they would have a flat SR of 11, which translates to having a 50% chance of avoiding being affected by a spell cast by an opponent within the same EL bracket.

I hope this clears up any questions you may have, and if not, I'll start checking the message boards again. I was away because I had sporatic internet access, and then classes began so I was very busy.

Eldorian Antar

 

[Kavon]

Hi again, U_K

Full marks for dedication.

Well, I was interested in it (took me a few days, but it was worth it ), so I sorta just *had* to read it all

Absolutely. I think it makes balancing homebrew Races/Templates/Monsters/Classes/Prestige Classes incredibly easy.

Yeah, really looking forward to using it (I've been too busy reading the topics to really get into the thing itself )

I don't think you can criticise WotC too harshly - I mean I only stumbled upon a lot of the problems because I was designing well beyond the parameters of the core rules. Although they should have picked up the problem when they came to do the epic rules; but I think thats a testament to the fact they never really ventured much beyond 30th level

Yeah, that's true.. I was just kind of disappointed I guess.

I appreciate the interest mate.

I get around, but ENWorld has always been my virtual home - in fact without ENWorld I may never have written the Immortals Handbook.

I mostly drift around I guess, reading what seems interesting at the time,or looking for bits that could help me with my world. I hardly post though (I believe this would be my second post on this message board), I just had to give my graditude I guess (and your ever present enthousiasm to help people certainly deserves credit )

I'm partial to chocalate chip cookies - imaginary or othewise.

Alright *imagines generously*

 

[kreynolds]

Hey UK,

I was kicking around the idea of innate spellcasting enhancements yesterday. Innate spellcasting enhancements are basically a creature's ability to innately apply metamagic feat effects to spells they cast, without an increase in the level of the spell. The Heirophant prestige class (from the FRCS) gets an ability (blast infidel) similar, albeit very limited, but its that ability that made me think of this.

I was wondering if the IH was going to cover something like this. If not, here's what it looks like...

Spellcasting Enhancements (Ex)
Some creatures have an innate understanding of metamagic. This allows them to cast spells using the effects of metamagic feats without difficulty, or in other words, without an increase in the spells level. Some creatures can use this ability a limited number of times per day, while others have no limitations as to how often they can use it.

The base ability comes in two forms; one that is useable three times per day, and another that has no use limitations. The level adjustment of the ability is based upon the spell level modifier of the original metamagic feat. The higher the modifier, the higher the level adjustment. Use the list below to determine the level adjustment modifier of these abilities.

Though spellcasting enhancements do not actually increase spells cast by the creature, a creature cannot apply a spellcasting enhancement to a spell if it could not normally cast spells of the modified level. For example, an 11th-level wizard can cast up to 6th-level spells. If the wizard has the spell maximization ability, he can only apply it to 3rd-level and lower spells.

Level Mod	LA (3/day)	LA (unlimited)
+0		+0.1		+1.8
+1		+0.15		+2.2
+2		+0.2		+3.0
+3		+0.25		+3.4
+4		+0.3		+3.8
+5		+0.35		+4
+6		+0.4		+4.2
+7		+0.45		+4.3
+8		+0.5		+4.5
+9		+0.55		+4.6

I figure the design parameter for this ability would essentially just be similar to the prerequisites of the metamagic feat in question.

How do these numbers look? Too high? Too low?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi again, U_K

Hi Kavon mate!

I mostly drift around I guess, reading what seems interesting at the time,or looking for bits that could help me with my world. I hardly post though (I believe this would be my second post on this message board), I just had to give my graditude I guess (and your ever present enthousiasm to help people certainly deserves credit )

I feel very passionately about high-level gaming (epic; immortal, whatever you want to call it). So I always try and champion its ideals on various boards.

I don't like ignorant negative comments about such gaming (that doesn't really help anyone); though to be fair I have rarely had to lay the Immortal Smackdown over the years.

Alright *imagines generously*

*Scoffs copiously*

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey UK,

Hi kreynolds mate!

I was kicking around the idea of innate spellcasting enhancements yesterday. Innate spellcasting enhancements are basically a creature's ability to innately apply metamagic feat effects to spells they cast, without an increase in the level of the spell. The Heirophant prestige class (from the FRCS) gets an ability (blast infidel) similar, albeit very limited, but its that ability that made me think of this.

*SNIP* [/QUOTE]

Wouldn't the easiest method be to simply rate the spell-like ability/abilities as if they were higher level as determined by the metamagic.

eg. The SLA of a creature who could use Quicken Metamagic at will with all its abilities would be counted as if each was +4 spell levels higher.

 

[kreynolds]

Wouldn't the easiest method be to simply rate the spell-like ability/abilities as if they were higher level as determined by the metamagic.

Not exactly. As I have conceived them, Innate Spellcasting Enhancements don't apply to spell-like abilities. They only apply to actual spells. For spell-like abilities, I agree with you, but that's an entirely different case. It's easy to just adjust the modifiers of...

3/day - fireball, magic missile, polar ray

...as though all of them were empowered, but that's different. What I'm talking about is a PC or NPC that can cast spells as a class ability, or a creature that has innate spellcasting (such as those that cast cleric spells as a <blah>th-level caster). For example, say you have a 10th-level Wizard with either of the following innate spellcasting enhancements...

Spell Maximization (Ex)
Up to three times per day, a creature with this ability can cast any spells it knows as though they were under the effects of the Maximize Spell metamagic feat, though there is no increase in level. Using this ability is a free action at the time of casting.
Level Adjustment: +0 (+0.25).

Spell Maximization, Greater (Ex)
A creature with this ability can cast any spells it knows as though they were under the effects of the Maximize Spell metamagic feat, though there is no increase in level. Using this ability is a free action at the time of casting.
Level Adjustment: +3 (+3.4).

Do you see what I mean? The above 10th-level wizard would be able to apply the effects of Maximize Spell to any applicable spell he has prepared of 2nd-level or lower (due to the limitations/design parameter of the ability), with no effective increase in level.

Something like this can't be rated as you suggest because we're not talking about a static array of spell-like abilities or spells. We're talking about an array of spells that can change on a day to day basis, an array that may or may not contain the same number of spells applicable to Maximize Spell on a day to day basis.

Make sense?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hello again mate!

Not exactly. As I have conceived them, Innate Spellcasting Enhancements don't apply to spell-like abilities. They only apply to actual spells.

Aren't these in essence 'feats' you are outlining then.

As a result a flat +0.2 should suffice, shouldn't it?

 

[Kavon]

Hi Kavon mate!

Hey once again U_K

I feel very passionately about high-level gaming (epic; immortal, whatever you want to call it). So I always try and champion its ideals on various boards.

Yeah, I was really excited about the ELH (never had need to use it yet though), and the D&Dg was something I was looking forward to allot too. When I heard that you were working on the IH, it sounded very good (I had some problems with the way the deity rules were done in the D&Dg book). I'm very much into working on my homebrew world (and the races, deities, etc on it), and I wanted to have some kick ass things for my deities (the D&Dg didn't do it for me anymore after a while of reading it). Now I'm just waiting for your IH (I'm currently only working on flavor things when I work on my deities).

I don't like ignorant negative comments about such gaming (that doesn't really help anyone); though to be fair I have rarely had to lay the Immortal Smackdown over the years.

Yeah, I agree. I've seen people complain about it quite a bit in my time of lurking around boards (and I couldn't really talk, since I hadn't actually used it myself, except for some NPC's).

dreams of his players getting to 'Epic' levels
(I'd better get my world more complete before that though )

*Scoffs copiously*

Well, if I were who I was in my world, I'd give you some real cookies
What was the highest achievable thing again?

 

[Kerrick]

Unfortunately that brings us back to where we were six months ago in factoring ability scores - the problem we found then, was that its both pedantic and penalises PCs who roll high ability scores (essentially factoring/penalising luck) - which isn't really something you want to do.

Ah, I didn't know you'd already tried that.

Greetings Kavon, and welcome to the discussion.

[quoteAbsolutely. I think it makes balancing homebrew Races/Templates/Monsters/Classes/Prestige Classes incredibly easy.[/quote]

Yes it does. It takes a bit getting used to at first, but after a dozen monsters I could glance at the ability and tally up the score. Things that weren't covered in the document were a little harder to gauge, but I think I got them fairly accurate...

I don't think you can criticise WotC too harshly - I mean I only stumbled upon a lot of the problems because I was designing well beyond the parameters of the core rules. Although they should have picked up the problem when they came to do the epic rules; but I think thats a testament to the fact they never really ventured much beyond 30th level.

They said themselves that they never did any really serious playtesting of higher levels (read: 15th and above). One thing that I find silly was their claim that saves become too unbalanced the higher up you go. The difference between saves at 60th level (as in the example they give) is only 12! If you factor in stat scores, magic items, feats, etc., that gap will likely be much less, depending on the class.

Now, don't get me wrong - I like high-level play. I don't like WotC's treatment of it, which was incomplete at best. They seriously dropped the ball with the ELH, but that's a topic that's been hashed out over and over, so I'll let it go.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey once again U_K

Hiya mate!

Yeah, I was really excited about the ELH (never had need to use it yet though), and the D&Dg was something I was looking forward to allot too.

I was really looking forward to both D&Dg and the ELH myself.

When I heard that you were working on the IH, it sounded very good (I had some problems with the way the deity rules were done in the D&Dg book).

I still don't know what WotC were thinking with that book?

I'm very much into working on my homebrew world (and the races, deities, etc on it), and I wanted to have some kick ass things for my deities (the D&Dg didn't do it for me anymore after a while of reading it). Now I'm just waiting for your IH (I'm currently only working on flavor things when I work on my deities).

Well I am sure you will find something useful in the Immortals Handbook.

Yeah, I agree. I've seen people complain about it quite a bit in my time of lurking around boards (and I couldn't really talk, since I hadn't actually used it myself, except for some NPC's).

I wasn't necessarily addressing Epic Level Handbook mechanics but rather the more philosophical condemnation of high-level gaming.

dreams of his players getting to 'Epic' levels

(I'd better get my world more complete before that though )

Well, if I were who I was in my world, I'd give you some real cookies

Appreciate the cookie love mate!

What was the highest achievable thing again?

The Dungeon Master.