Revised CRs/ECLs - Thread #3

[Wulf Ratbane]

Instead of relative CR I have relative EL. Identifying this is the key to being able to properly rate CRs (especially at epic levels).

I'm not sure you answered the question. [EDITED FOR MATHEMATICAL BRAIN FART] Does a DR35/+1 ability add +2 CR, equally, to both a CR1 creature and a CR20 creature? My contention is that it doesn't add +2 to the CR of a CR20 creature. I don't think it adds even +1 CR. It's almost negligible, especially when weighed against "absolute" CR abilities you could buy instead for +2 CR. And conversely it's almost overwhelming at CR1.

I have a question about Table 1-1a. It seems to be saying that a CR1 creature is EL1, but a CR2 creature is EL5. Just so I am sure I understand you, exactly what combination of 4 PCs is suitable for a CR2 creature? (I agree with your table, and what you seem to be saying about CR vs. EL on the high ends, but it doesn't work for me -conceptually- on the low end of the CR scale.)

Oh... And before I forget... "Waaaaaa! I want it NOW!"


Wulf

 

[ciaran00]

I mean I factor increased Ability Scores from Levels; from Magic Items; from Templates; from Size; from Racial Traits; from Type Traits etc.

You could go the opposite way and factor Ability Scores directly, but then you have to make allowances for levels; for equipment; for racial traits; for size etc.

So a CR 20 monster with manually boosted ability scores is still CR 20?

ciaran

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Wulf mate!

I'm not sure you answered the question. [EDITED FOR MATHEMATICAL BRAIN FART] Does a DR35/+1 ability add +2 CR, equally, to both a CR1 creature and a CR20 creature?

Well there is no DR 35/+1 anymore, though I suppose we can substitute DR 35/magic.

Actually, in my system it would affect the CR of the CR 20 creature more, but (before you relate you think I am nuts) thats because of the relationship between CR and EL.

At higher levels you have to increase CR more to affect EL than you do at lower levels.

My contention is that it doesn't add +2 to the CR of a CR20 creature. I don't think it adds even +1 CR. It's almost negligible, especially when weighed against "absolute" CR abilities you could buy instead for +2 CR.

Well it would probably add EL +3 to the CR 1 monster and maybe just EL +1 to the CR 20 monster.

And conversely it's almost overwhelming at CR1.

It certainly breaks various design parameters.

I have a question about Table 1-1a. It seems to be saying that a CR1 creature is EL1, but a CR2 creature is EL5. Just so I am sure I understand you, exactly what combination of 4 PCs is suitable for a CR2 creature? (I agree with your table, and what you seem to be saying about CR vs. EL on the high ends, but it doesn't work for me -conceptually- on the low end of the CR scale.)

Well I must admit I did cheat on the relationship between CR 1 and CR 2. It should really be EL +3 not +4. But the formula works everywhere else so I thought I could get away with it.

Incidently the relationship parallels EXP in case you were wondering. I simplified it to CR x 2 = EL +4 (since when you double the CR the EXP total is approximately four times as much*)

*except between 1st-2nd.

Oh... And before I forget... "Waaaaaa! I want it NOW!"

Well I have 2 and 4 on the previous list finished, so its just the explanation of Alternate Forms (a paragraph, though the wording is tricky) and the Situational Modifier examples and then double check all the formatting and all we have left is the Revised CRs to list.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi ciaran mate!

So a CR 20 monster with manually boosted ability scores is still CR 20?

Define 'manually boosted'?

 

[ciaran00]

Hi ciaran mate!
Define 'manually boosted'?

Hey U_K! Um, just disregard. You've already covered this.


ciaran

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi all!

Just wanted to give a bit of an update on whats happening and why I don't have the darn thing ready for you yet.

I was going over things and noticed a few problems (all corrected now); however to cut a long story short I think I now have a very detailed method of how to outline the core classes. The results of this showed as I rate things all the Core Classes were CR 1.1+ per Level.

Obviously the Core Classes have to be (on average) CR 1 per Level. Meaning that on average all my factors are 10% too high. Obviously I can't change the individual factors which means you have to change the final total.

So if the CR factors give you CR 26 it would really be CR 23.4 etc.

Any comments on this?

 

[ciaran00]

goddammit you are great.

CANT WAIT

ciaran

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi all!

...by the way, appreciate the support ciaran mate.

I just want to get some responses as to how this recent twist might effect v4.

Heres a breakdown of the Pit Fiend:

18 Outsider HD = +12.6
Devil Traits = +1.8
Attacks 6 = +2.5
Damage (28 above average for size) = +2.8
Flight (average) = +0.6
Natural Armor 23 = +2.3
Large Size = +1.5
Damage Reduction 15/evil + silver = +0.75
Disease 1d4/incubation in days = +0.075
Constrict = +0.5
Fear Aura = +0.6
Improved Grab = +0.2
Poison 1d6/Death = +0.46
Regeneration 5 = +0.5
Spell-like Abilities = +6.102
Spell Resistance 32 = +2.2
Summon = +0.4

Factor Total = 35.887
After Golden Rule* = 30.543
After Silver Rule** = 26.267 (26)

*Any CR above double the HD/Levels factor is halved.
**Multiply by 0.86

The Silver Rule (for want of a better name at this point) is x0.86 (rather than the x0.9 I previously iterated) because the average of the Class Levels is 116% rated by the CR factors. Therefore if the Class Levels are really +1 CR per level the monsters must be +0.86 per rated point.

Personally I am not totally happy with this latest revelation as it makes the system less intuitive; though the goal is of course accuracy and I'll stand by these CRs as pretty much perfection. I just wish I didn't need the Golden and Silver rules to get there.

What do the rest of you think?

Are these bi-metallic addendums too clumsy a mechanic?
Do you care (since I am the one having to rate all the Core and Epic Monsters)?
Does any of this make sense?

 

[kreynolds]

Does any of this make sense?

Not to me, but then again, I haven't been close to the development.

 

[Kavon]

Hi all!

Hey U_K

What do the rest of you think?

Are these bi-metallic addendums too clumsy a mechanic?
Do you care (since I am the one having to rate all the Core and Epic Monsters)?
Does any of this make sense?

- Well, I guess it does make it a bit less.. I dunno.
- Hmm... I guess I would, since I'd want to make my own stuff, and I'm sure others would too
- I have no idea

It's.. Kinda like a double-edged blade. We could all say it's fine and dandy, and you'd give us v4 and all.
Or.. we could say it's not so smooth, you'd go back to work on it, and we'd need to wait a whole lot longer still
Maybe something for a v5?
Or do you think it won't take that much time?

edit: [nitpicking on self]added a 'd' at the end of 'edge'[/nitpick]