Revised Stealth rules - What happened to the "In combat, creatures paying attention"?

[CapnZapp]

Sorry, you're right, Saeviomagy and DracoSuave: I should have clarified I am only talking about combat usage.

Outside of combat PCs can do all kinds of amazing stuff; it just isn't very important to me.

So let me rephrase the question:

Can any character of any level enter an open outdoors area full of active enemies, and when everybody has seen him, lose everybody's attention, walk across the area in plain sight and stay hidden the whole time?

My suspicion is the answer is "without invisibility, no, never". In other words, that there aren't any true hide in plain sight abilities.

 

[DracoSuave]

Sorry, you're right, Saeviomagy and DracoSuave: I should have clarified I am only talking about combat usage.

Outside of combat PCs can do all kinds of amazing stuff; it just isn't very important to me.

So let me rephrase the question:

Can any character of any level enter an open outdoors area full of active enemies, and when everybody has seen him, lose everybody's attention, walk across the area in plain sight and stay hidden the whole time?

My suspicion is the answer is "without invisibility, no, never". In other words, that there aren't any true hide in plain sight abilities.

Bluff Check.

 

[KarinsDad]

Bluff Check.

Actually, I was responding to:

Remember though, there are a few possible ways to skirt around this. Items aside there are various powers you can use. A stealth focused rogue should by 10th level be able to simply walk across a room in plain sight and stay hidden the whole time.

There is also the bluff check method of hiding

His first paragraph implied a way to do "this" (i.e. combat stealth since that was the topic) with using powers and without using Bluff since he started his second paragraph as he did.


So my (more clearly phrased) question still remains, "How does a 10th level Rogue simply walk across a room in plain sight in combat and stay hidden the whole time via powers alone?" I was confused as to which powers helped the Rogue do this.

Fleeting Ghost doesn't help.
Chameleon is an immediate interrupt, so it cannot be done on the Rogue's turn.
Shadow Stride doesn't help.


As for Bluff, it is once per combat encounter and once the Rogue's turn ends, he is no longer hidden unless he has superior cover or total concealment when he finishes. The "Hide in Plain Sight" aspect of Bluff ends at the end of the Rogue's turn.

And Bluff is situational. If a foe cannot see you (e.g. you have Superior Cover from that foe) and you Bluff, Stealth, and then move, if the foe can now see you (e.g. you no longer are behind the Superior Cover), you are not hidden to that foe. You are just hidden to the foes you Bluffed. You can still make the rolls and not be Hidden from every foe.

 

[Saeviomagy]

"How does a 10th level Rogue simply walk across a room in plain sight in combat and stay hidden the whole time via powers alone?" I was confused as to which powers helped the Rogue do this.

By starting off hidden. What you actually want to know is "how does a 10th level rogue hide in plain sight in combat". And there's still a bunch of ways to do it (bluffing, and the rest of them requiring that you create cover or concealment somehow), most of them relatively situational. But still doable.

As for Bluff, it is once per combat encounter and once the Rogue's turn ends, he is no longer hidden unless he has superior cover or total concealment when he finishes. The "Hide in Plain Sight" aspect of Bluff ends at the end of the Rogue's turn.

Doesn't that mean that chameleon kicks in? Or can it not kick in because "the end of the rogues turn" is still within his turn?

And Bluff is situational. If a foe cannot see you (e.g. you have Superior Cover from that foe) and you Bluff, Stealth, and then move, if the foe can now see you (e.g. you no longer are behind the Superior Cover), you are not hidden to that foe. You are just hidden to the foes you Bluffed. You can still make the rolls and not be Hidden from every foe.

The same applies if you get cover or concealment against some but not all foes, or roll the right number on your stealth check. And shadow stride and chameleon cover this quite nicely.

 

[KarinsDad]

By starting off hidden. What you actually want to know is "how does a 10th level rogue hide in plain sight in combat". And there's still a bunch of ways to do it (bluffing, and the rest of them requiring that you create cover or concealment somehow), most of them relatively situational. But still doable.

No, that was not my question. The implication was that it could be done with just powers, so I was curious to know which ones. I already knew about Bluff.


And, starting off hidden doesn't really do it. He starts off hidden, he comes out of hiding to start walking across the room, Chameleon doesn't work because it cannot be used on his turn (hence, he wasn't hidden while moving). Fleeting Ghost does not allow him to hide out in the open.

Shadow Stride might do it if he starts off hidden (i.e. superior cover or total concealment) and ends in a single move in cover, but that's not exactly "simply walking across a room in plain sight" unless the room is very small. It's more like a short dash from cover to cover. And it is one power. Still looking for "various powers".


The implication was that the Rogue could do this solely with powers (i.e. not items or bluff). I was unaware of how. Shadow Stride is the closest, but even it is extremely limited. I don't see any other powers that do this. Do you?

 

[Tony Vargas]

So the question is, 'how can a rogue hide when hiding is absolutely impossible?' Well, he can't. However, in any situation where it's remotely possible, a high enough level rogue can stay hidden, even when staying hidden should be impossible, which isn't too bad.

To use the various rogue utilities, you generally have to start out hidden. So, you need to break line of sight. Terrain that blocks line of sight obviously lets you do that, and walls are not increadibly rare. Lots of effects other characters (and even enemies) might create durring combat might also block line of sight.

 

[CapnZapp]

Well, not really.

Some of us interpreted previous answers as "a Rogue can hide in plain sight using only powers, and do it easily too".

After a few clarifying posts, I currently understand the answer to be "a Rogue isn't really any better at hiding* in plain sight than anyone else".

*) hiding as in "going into hiding" - not hiding as in "remaining in hiding"

That is, anyone can train in Bluff. Anyone can get a Ring of Invisibility. Etc.

The issue was about whether being a Rogue helped. By now, it's clear that all powers offered up in answers require the rogue to start off hidden, which bypasses most of the point (that at least I thought were under discussion).

 

[DracoSuave]

After a few clarifying posts, I currently understand the answer to be "a Rogue isn't really any better at hiding* in plain sight than anyone else"

Well are they better at that initial Stealth check? No. But 'hiding in plain sight' is more than that initial Stealth check, and Rogues can make more use out of that first check than any other class.

Warlocks are a close second, but they don't have the Stealth skill to pull it off.

Avengers have a few tricks to -get- into Stealth, but nothing like the rogue has for -staying- in Stealth in plain sight.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Shadow Stride might do it if he starts off hidden (i.e. superior cover or total concealment) and ends in a single move in cover, but that's not exactly "simply walking across a room in plain sight" unless the room is very small. It's more like a short dash from cover to cover. And it is one power. Still looking for "various powers".

The implication was that the Rogue could do this solely with powers (i.e. not items or bluff). I was unaware of how. Shadow Stride is the closest, but even it is extremely limited. I don't see any other powers that do this. Do you?

Since the original quote is "walk across a room", yes. He starts out of the room and out of LOS, he walks across the room and out of LOS using shadow stride. Mission accomplished.

Like I said, I think we're talking about two radically different scenarios: one is "I start unhidden, and without achieving concealment or cover, and using only rogue powers how can I become hidden and remain so while staying out of concealment". The other is "I start out of the room, walk across it in plain sight and leave the room again". Other permutations include stuff like "I can use things that a rogue has access to to achieve hiddenness" and "I am allowed to manufacture concealment".

Suppose we adjust our bare-room scenario a little.

The room contains something that provides partial cover to a standing individual, like a table:
A rogue with the correct utilities can drop prone behind that partial cover, hide and then get up and walk away. Hell, he can move to the cover, drop prone and hide, and then stay there as his foes surround him, unable to tell where he went.

Or we allow the use of items:
He can throw a pair of smokesticks (why two? So he can get 5 squares of concealment, which becomes total concealment) then action point to move... well... anywhere in the room. Again, something that most other classes cannot do (a warlock can do this one though).