Revisioning Tiers

Sorry, but this simply isn't true. 4e gave us a the most working version of epic play since.. well, perhaps ever. Every single class was supported for epic play and there were lots of monsters.

Sure, there weren't that many adventurers, and we could definitely have used more monsters. We could also have used more articles and such.

But 4e epic play was working, at least if you fiddled a bit with monster damage and tweaked some of their powers. Yes, it was grindy (as hell) but it was still more balanced and playable than in any of the previous editions.

IMO ofc course.

(note that "previous editions" in this case refers to 2e and later, as I never played epic in 1e or before.)


Lies. IMO anyway. <= this isn't acceptable, and you've been here long enough to know it. And the 'IMO' doesn't excuse your rudeness. Plane Sailing, ENWorld Admin
4e epics is just higher level paragon. It didn't feel epic at all. Sure the foes you face can threaten millions but your PC is barely superheroic. You are just stronger and tougher.

But that is besides the point.

I'd keep the 3 tiers, add 2 more, and split them in two.

Early Heroic:
1-5. You are a recently trained hero facing local threats. You are just as normal as we are now.

Late Heroic 6-10. You are an experienced but still human hero facing threats to multiple cities or a small kingdom.

Early Paragon: 11-15. You are a veteran hero who faces threats to many kingdoms. You might have to leave the plane to do this.

Late Paragon: 16-20. You are a legendary minor reality warper who faces threats to a entire plane. You will have to leave the plane to do this.

Early Epic: 21-25. You are a mythical reality warper who is now noticed by deities, archdfiends, demon princes, and fey royalty. They call you to annoy and disrupt their enemies

Late Epic: 26-30. You are an exarch or demigod. You are a valuable resource to a major power or a thorn to one of thier sides and a successful mission is usually one step to the death of a deity, archdevil, demon prince, etc.
 
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I don't like the idea of expanding the level range, few people play the 21-30 range to begin with.

Really all you're doing is spreading out the same content over more levels, I honestly don't find the Luke Skywalker dirt-farmer-to-Jedi story very appealing. Made for a good movie, but I don't have much desire to replay it at the table.

Honestly I think the tier system of 4e was good, though paragon paths could have used significantly more diversity, along with the inclusion of a lot more evil-aligned paragon paths and epic destinies. Early-to-mid 4e I simply couldn't run evil campaigns because there was no material(and darn are evil campaigns fun!)

I do not look fondly on prestige classes of 3.5 and earlier editions. They were unbalanced, too easy or too difficult to access and only certain ones provided anything useful. 4e's prestige classes and epic destinies at least attempted to be balanced, didn't have complex entry-requirements, and were full of both effective abilities and fun fluff.

I dunno, honestly the whole "farm-boy to Jedi" story never appealed to me....
 

Both polls here on EN World and Wizards of the Coast employees indicate that people don't play above 12th level.

I wrote a blog about it here.

Don't build the "feel" of the level range into the game. Some people want the feel of dirt farmer and some don't but the game mechanics don't need to differ between those two groups.

Spreading out the levels creates a problem. People expect their character to change as they level otherwise the levels are pointless numbers. We've already heard that number (To Hit Bonuses, AC, &c) will probably grow more slowly in D&D Next and I agree that's necessary.

I wrote about how characters should get more options and variety as they level.

If you give characters new options each level and their are twice or three times as many levels then there will be so many options from leveling that it will be too complex and cumbersome to keep track of it all.
 

Caveat: I haven't gotten my campaign to epic levels yet- we're early-mid paragon right now. (My original 4e group got to high paragon but then I moved a few hundred miles away.)

The problem with epic level 4e is that it doesn't feel very... well... epic.

I mean, my 3e epic campaign had amazing stuff go on. The pcs slew Asmodeus (on his own plane!), overthrew the world-spanning empire that had been in charge of my campaign for centuries in game time and since I started this campaign world about 17? years ago and put up their npc fighter as the new ruler of basically the world, went and destroyed one of those ancient monsters that was marked on all the campaign maps as part of their downtime, got hit by epic spells for 20d12 damage that were cast from other planes, etc. They did epic stuff- and they totally controlled the pace.

4e supports some of that, but it doesn't look like it allows the pcs to run the show like 3e did- and to my mind, that is a big part of what made it feel so truly epic. I mean, the epic 3e party could pretty much go anywhere they wanted anytime they wanted; see (or, pretty much, slay) anyone they wanted; they were the toughest guys in the world. It felt very, very different than it did even at 17th or 18th level.

4e looks to me like it never gets that holy cow, this is epic! feeling. I could be wrong, and don't get me wrong; I really like 4e.

4e epic tier missing the "holy cow" factor is linked to the neutering of the spell-casting system. So yeah, if you compare 4e epic to 3e or 2e epic, it will feel less epic.

However, if you put things in perspective and compare to the rest (heroic and paragon tier) of 4e, you will see a pretty big difference.

Lies. IMO anyway.
4e epics is just higher level paragon. It didn't feel epic at all. Sure the foes you face can threaten millions but your PC is barely superheroic. You are just stronger and tougher.
Am not sure why you felt you needed to call me a liar. Also, I am not sure where it says that epic = superheroes. Then again, people have been accusing 1st level 4e characters of being superheroes, so obviously quite a few will disagree with that statement.

Anyway, could you expand a bit on why you feel there is no difference between paragon and epic?
 

From reading the responses, I'm thinking that it would be a mistake to fuse tiers to the core system and that they should, instead, be used in a modular fashion to define different approaches to campaign styles and character development. So I've got some ideas in that regard.

First of all, a DM (with the agreement of the group) can decide whether to start a "Classic" or "Heroic" campaign; in the former the characters would start at a power level closer to AD&D - not quite 1E, but somewhere between 1E and 3E. In Heroic, the characters would start as established (albeit minor) heroes, somewhere in the 3E to 4E range. The difference could include anything from starting ability scores to number of HP, feats, and something akin to what I was calling "Heroic Talents" which would be a modular option to bring back a bit of the 4E power feel. In the Heroic game, for example, a PC might get a Heroic Talent at 4th and 8th level, or something like that, that begins to set him or her apart from your everyday folk.

In this approach, further "tiers" become modular options off of the Heroic tier - Paragon at 11th, focused on Paragon Paths; Epic tier at 21st level, focused on Epic Destinies; and Immortal tier at 31st level, with Divine Traits and later, possibly, Spheres of Influence.

The key here is that each tier is a modular option; if one wants to simply play the Classic game, they go from 1st to 20th or 30th level without any of that "extra jazz"; power curve is flatter and more realistic to real-world developmental patterns. But for those wanting a more powerful, epic fantasy feel, the tiers are modular options that can be added on.

A further modular option would be similar to 1E's 0-level characters, an Apprentice level that could be played as a kind of prequel to the Classic game.

Now of course one potential problem with all of this is that it further complexifies what could potentially already be a confusing situation with tons of modular options. But if the design goal for 5E is to provide different play styles, in addition to a basic/advanced bifurcation being required to appeal to both those who want a simple rule set and those that want a more complex tactical game, I would suggest that WotC needs to do the same with what I'm calling Classic and Heroic campaign styles, and that--as opposed to my original post--these don't need to be fused to levels.

I would also add [MENTION=2804]Dragonblade[/MENTION]'s idea--which I was thinking about as well--that the tiers are akin to options that the game group can either choose or not choose to "open up," and even choose when they want to open them up. So you might have the Classic game as the core and the, starting at something like 5th level, the group can either choose to open up Heroic tier or stick with Classic; if they choose Heroic, they get a Heroic Talent and maybe an increase in ability scores. Then, starting at 11th level or so, they can choose to open up Paragon tier, at which point they choose a Paragon Path and another increase in ability scores, with further increases and Path-related powers through the next ten levels. Then, starting at 21st level they can choose to open up Epic tier and choose an Epic Destiny with further increases as with Paragon tier. The same with Immortal tier starting at 31st level.

The point is, that all of these tiers would be optional. Perhaps each would require the former; one couldn't start Epic without first having gone through Paragon and Heroic, but there is flexibility as to when these could be started, and they would be added onto the normal level development. A 25th level character in the Classic game would be a great warrior or wizard, but would still be "mundane", ability scores maxed out around 20, and no tier-specific talents, paths or destinies that accent their class and race-based powers. Or a 25th level character could be superheroic, with ability scores in the mid-to-high 20s, with special powers from the various tiers.

Again, exactly how this is done is not as important right now than that there is the possibility--but not the necessity--to open up higher powered tier equivalents.
 

Am not sure why you felt you needed to call me a liar. Also, I am not sure where it says that epic = superheroes. Then again, people have been accusing 1st level 4e characters of being superheroes, so obviously quite a few will disagree with that statement.

Anyway, could you expand a bit on why you feel there is no difference between paragon and epic?

When I mean superheroes... I mean at epic, PCs become comic and cartoon superheroes.

The epic paladin, with his weapon in the inn, taps into his divine strength, grabs a nearby carriage, and tosses the whole thing at the monster attacking the village.

The epic fighter studies the death titan's fighting style during their combat. At the right moment, he directed the falling axe back at the giant and stabs his hidden weakspot, the 4th toe on his left foot.

The epic warlock tries to curse a villainous elemental through his wizard ally's scrying ritual. He realizes that the villian was already cursed by him a decade ago. The warlock snaps his fingers and the emental takes 3d6 damage... just because.

The epic rogue spends the day in "his" "shop" with the man he kidnapped and crafts a perfect disguise to replace him. Even in voice, he has the noble completely duplicated in him. With just the three hours of studying before the kidnapping, he even copied his mannerisms. Later he sneak attacks the fey king's eldest son at the Summer Sky ball. The escape is made n the clouds. He hops onto them, balancing on raindrops.

The epic tracker stares at a charred spot in the ground and realize where the escaping archmage teleported to. He stabs the residual magic left behind by the spell with his epic dagger and rips a hole in the fabric of reality. The tracker leaps through the hole and tackles the exhausted wizard.


but in 4e, you just get bonus damage, power boost, and extra lives.
 


When I mean superheroes... I mean at epic, PCs become comic and cartoon superheroes.

The epic paladin, with his weapon in the inn, taps into his divine strength, grabs a nearby carriage, and tosses the whole thing at the monster attacking the village.

The epic fighter studies the death titan's fighting style during their combat. At the right moment, he directed the falling axe back at the giant and stabs his hidden weakspot, the 4th toe on his left foot.

The epic warlock tries to curse a villainous elemental through his wizard ally's scrying ritual. He realizes that the villian was already cursed by him a decade ago. The warlock snaps his fingers and the emental takes 3d6 damage... just because.

The epic rogue spends the day in "his" "shop" with the man he kidnapped and crafts a perfect disguise to replace him. Even in voice, he has the noble completely duplicated in him. With just the three hours of studying before the kidnapping, he even copied his mannerisms. Later he sneak attacks the fey king's eldest son at the Summer Sky ball. The escape is made n the clouds. He hops onto them, balancing on raindrops.

The epic tracker stares at a charred spot in the ground and realize where the escaping archmage teleported to. He stabs the residual magic left behind by the spell with his epic dagger and rips a hole in the fabric of reality. The tracker leaps through the hole and tackles the exhausted wizard.


but in 4e, you just get bonus damage, power boost, and extra lives.

Okay. I think it's pretty safe to say that we have pretty divergent opinion of what epic should be. Fair enough.

EDIT: Out of curiosity, which edition of D&D has come the closest to being able to do anything like what you describe above? Because I must admit, I thought you were talking about another game.
 

Good stuff, [MENTION=63508]Minigiant[/MENTION]. That would fit my idea as well and would well-differentiate it from Paragon, rather than simply being an extension of it.

As I said in my OP, the tonal difference in 4E between tiers is relatively similar: it is all heroic/legendary/epic, so therefore none of it is. Regardless of how 5E actually looks or if they take an approach similar to any of my ideas, I'd like to see different play options, at the very least for what I was calling "Classic" and "Heroic." In the Classic game, the upper levels wouldn't feel quite so superheroic as you describe, but in the Heroic game they would.
 

Okay. I think it's pretty safe to say that we have pretty divergent opinion of what epic should be. Fair enough.

EDIT: Out of curiosity, which edition of D&D has come the closest to being able to do anything like what you describe above? Because I must admit, I thought you were talking about another game.

3rd Edition was close. It's just that the DCs are just way too high or you have to be divine to do half those things.

But Epic 3rd edition was too unbalanced and weird.

My point is after 20th level, PCs should be involved with the great powers of the world. These is no mundane anymore for normal actions mimic magic. You are the monsters you once fought. Warriors are like miniature giants, fey, and dragons. Arcanists are no longer limited to the laws. Clerics and paladins are wingless angels. And you do all the dirty work because the demon princes, minor deities, lords of hell, primordial forces, and archfey can't risk stepping out their castles.
 

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