Revisioning Tiers

[Shroomy]

I think explicit tiers will be out all together, because there's a significant group of players that believe it dictates how the game should be played (similar to many objections to explicit roles). I think they will return to implicit tiers (I also doubt that the level spread will be as great in D&D Next) reinforced by player abilities, magic items, and monsters.

 

[Jack99]

3rd Edition was close. It's just that the DCs are just way too high or you have to be divine to do half those things.

But Epic 3rd edition was too unbalanced and weird.

My point is after 20th level, PCs should be involved with the great powers of the world. These is no mundane anymore for normal actions mimic magic. You are the monsters you once fought. Warriors are like miniature giants, fey, and dragons. Arcanists are no longer limited to the laws. Clerics and paladins are wingless angels. And you do all the dirty work because the demon princes, minor deities, lords of hell, primordial forces, and archfey can't risk stepping out their castles.

Not sure I am interested in epic, if that is epic, but luckily, that's a part of the game which is really easy to ignore

 

[Minigiant]

Not sure I am interested in epic, if that is epic, but luckily, that's a part of the game which is really easy to ignore

What? Getting mission briefings for Sehanine and having a mysterious folder passed to you by the Raven Queen is not cool?

I define tiers by the quest giver.
In Heroic is a random town folk. Then you progress to the town chief or a city mayor.
In Paragon, you are up to lords of vast properties or a king. Next you go up to multiple rulers as a large parts of a plane might be threatened.
In Epic, its archfey and demigods. Eventually you might be in the audience of deities.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

can´t we reduce it again to 20 levels?

i envision exactly what you proposed, but would have the adventurer tier as adventurer tier level 0
then your levels as you stated, but only 5 levels each.

 

[S'mon]

For me, Epic is Hercules wrestling the Nemean Lion, or Jacob wrestling God on the road. None of this balancing on raindrops malarkey. I'd say 4e Epic looks very much like what I want out of Epic - more like legendary heroes of myth, less scry-buff-teleport-kill Zeus.

 

[Jeff Carlsen]

I just had an interesting thought. What if Epic play isn't handled by levels above 20, but as a campaign template that affects all levels?

Here's what I mean. Levels 1-20 equal the range of mortal potential. Level 1 is a novice and level 20 is a grandmaster. Humans, by themselves, don't get better than this.

But let's say you want to play a game where the characters are divinely blessed, or demigods, or fueled by the blood of demons. They would still pick a class and start at level 1, but they would also gain (for lack of a better term) an epic destiny. As they gained levels, they would get abilities and bonuses from both their class and their destiny.

This better matches most epic fantasy novels and ancient hero myths. Hercules was a demigod from the beginning. Achilles gained his immortality from being dipped in the River Styx.

Design it right, and the players could obtain, or lose, an epic destiny any time the DM wanted to change focus.

This also solves the problem of few people ever playing high level games. As a separate module applied at first level, far more people would be interested in playing it. It might even help address some of the divide between the tastes of AD&D players and 4E players.

 

[The Shadow]

I just had an interesting thought. What if Epic play isn't handled by levels above 20, but as a campaign template that affects all levels?

This. Exactly this. People who want to play epic, often want to play it from the start, I think. It makes good mythical sense too.

Now, for those who want to start out weak and become epic, it's just a matter of the group deciding, "We've hit X level and the major arcs are finishing up, should we consider adding on the epic template?"

 

[Minigiant]

I just had an interesting thought. What if Epic play isn't handled by levels above 20, but as a campaign template that affects all levels?

Here's what I mean. Levels 1-20 equal the range of mortal potential. Level 1 is a novice and level 20 is a grandmaster. Humans, by themselves, don't get better than this.

But let's say you want to play a game where the characters are divinely blessed, or demigods, or fueled by the blood of demons. They would still pick a class and start at level 1, but they would also gain (for lack of a better term) an epic destiny. As they gained levels, they would get abilities and bonuses from both their class and their destiny.

This better matches most epic fantasy novels and ancient hero myths. Hercules was a demigod from the beginning. Achilles gained his immortality from being dipped in the River Styx.

Design it right, and the players could obtain, or lose, an epic destiny any time the DM wanted to change focus.

This also solves the problem of few people ever playing high level games. As a separate module applied at first level, far more people would be interested in playing it. It might even help address some of the divide between the tastes of AD&D players and 4E players.

I could see this working.
We could keep the weak epic that we are used too.

Then have special Legendary Destinies that players can add that on their characters to play as demigods, princes of hells or abyssal planes, fey nobility, spirits, and avatars.

 

[Jack99]

What? Getting mission briefings for Sehanine and having a mysterious folder passed to you by the Raven Queen is not cool?

I define tiers by the quest giver.
In Heroic is a random town folk. Then you progress to the town chief or a city mayor.
In Paragon, you are up to lords of vast properties or a king. Next you go up to multiple rulers as a large parts of a plane might be threatened.
In Epic, its archfey and demigods. Eventually you might be in the audience of deities.

Yes it is, but that's not at all what you were saying in the previous post. There you were talking about tossing carriages with one hand and walking on raindrops. Not quite the same. I am totally on board with the questgivers, but that worked fine in my 4e game. It wasn't Sehanine, but instead Asmodeus, Bane and Kord.

 

[Jeff Carlsen]

A few more thoughts on having Epic as a optional component at levels 1-20.

It follows a similar pattern as magic items. If magic items aren't part of the assumed math, then there's likely to be a system for calculating a party's effective level so that the DM can balance encounters based on how magical the party is. This same system could be used for balancing against Epic Destinies.

It also means that the same system can be used for a large variety of otherworldly power sources. Fey princes were mentioned above. You could also implement concepts form other novels like mistborn, the incredibly powerful wizards of the Belgariad, dragonborn of Skyrim, or even comic book style super powers.

If you want to play the older concept of levels greater than 20, There could easily be a mechanism for that. You reach level 20, and then everyone would pick an Epic Destiny. You would stop gaining levels in your class. In fact, XP requirements would flatten out (such as a straight 100,000xp per level). The levels are simply markers for when you get your next Epic Destiny improvement. You could then do the same for God templates. Thus, you can build your 20+ level play however you wish.