D&D 5E Revisiting material components - enforcing in a game focused on resource-management

[5ekyu]

I understand why you would recommend this, but I don't think it is overly harsh to say that they must have either the component or the focus to cast the spell. The material component is actually a focus, a way to help you get in touch with and manipulate the weave of magic. An arcane focus, druidic focus, bard instrument, or holy symbol allows you to take that deep understanding of the magical nature of the material component and focus it through this spellcasting focus. It is a shortcut only available to dedicated spellcasters who have spent much time deep in study and practice.

In short. If you have a spell-casting focus (and are of a class that has spellcasting focus as a class ability), you can cast the spell.

If you do not have a spell-casting focus, you can use the actual material component.

My only change is: in order for your spellcasting focus to replace a material component for casting purposes, you must first have studied and practices the spell with access to the appropriate material component.

That doesn't, IMO, nerf casters. They can hide multiple component pouches on their person if they are worried about losing both their focus and components. They may also want to have some safe house, store room, hidden cache, or laboratory where they store extra components in case they lose the components on their person. This just drips spell casting flavor for me.

One other change I am thinking about now is that the spell caster can only be attuned to one focus at a time. But it is a special focus-attunement slot that doesn't count against magic item attunement limits. Otherwise, at higher levels, the caster can just have, say, an extra wand hidden on his person. I like the idea that if your wand/instrument/staff/holy symbol is broken, stolen, lost, you need to get somewhere where you can take the time and money to make or buy a new one.

On the other hand, allowing multiple foci can lead to some fun roleplaying.

DM: "You wake up in a dark cell, stripped of all your possessions and clothes."

WIZARD: I take out my wand and cast light.

DM: You are naked. All your possessions were taken from you. Including your wand.

WIZARD: I had an extra one hidden.

DM: Where would you hide it‽

WIZARD: ... Do you want me to draw a picture?

DM: Ugh. Yeah, right, you've been walking around the dungeon with a stick up your ass.

FIGHTER: It would explain a lot.

WIZARD: Look, it is written on my character sheet. Both in the equipment section and my character's background. Fecesious Stercus went to an all-boys wizards academy and to get around forgetting or being able to procure needed components to complete tests, they would sneak--

DM: OKAY! Fine.

WIZARD: Oh, I also have components for banishment and true seeing.

DM: *Sigh* Fine--What? True seeing‽

"That doesn't, IMO, nerf casters."

The must use comp to,learn depends on how easy comps are to get. If i want to learn at 3rd level the Aggie Scorcher are red dragon scales so common its likely i can find them?

If at 2nd level i want to add Tasha's but we are in the field, are there Tart Bushes?

Now, you may laugh at my Tasha example, but consider instead find familiar.

Now be a Rogue going Trickster at 3rd level in the field. No town nesrby but we leveled up. He is REQUIRED to pick his spells then and he will not get a chance to take another non-enchant spell until like 5 levels later.

So you put him in the quandry, pick a spell he wont be able to use for who knows how long, or pick a spell without comps and wait 5 levels for his familiar.

This gets back to the issue of changing the materials as part of a comprehensive change - like say "you only level during downtime at signigicant towns - week of training and work and cost/access."

Not a hypothetical, happened in the game i play. Waiting on level up info now but it looks like our Trickster just spent the entirety of his 3rd level without getting mats for his FF since we finally made it to the keep where we hope he can find the ingredients. His choice was to basically "waste" that spell because he did not want to wait until 8th and the special choice at 3rd cannot change.

He also skipped Tasha's because "no tart bushes" and cannot use focus so... How long do tarts last? I doubt he will ever take it even though its right up the trickster alley.

In practical terms, either the rule plays a role that is noticably problematic for material spells or its gonna be a lot of rule for little notice.

If its the former its gonna significantly impact spell choice.

If not, its likely gonna be not that much different so why bother? Is it woeth these rules for "when i level i spend screen time routinely gathering mu bugs and dust"?

We started our current game naked and equipmentless. Our whole first level was without our gear. My halfling could not cast light, but because i took all my other spelks as non-mats was otherwise not hindered. Still no light spell, no torches was significant to half the party.

But it could have been much worse.

Either was my list of prioritized spell candidates now lists them in order of material demand and availability.

Maybe you will find a sweet spot **without an overhaul** where there is "enough change and better flavor to,make it worth tracking" but not "so much change it negatively impacts long term play and limits spell choices."

But before that can be guessed at - how common are red dragon scales and how,long do tarts last in a spell pouch before going bad and smelly?

 

[5ekyu]

IRL "magic" rituals are full of stuff like this. I like magic to have these weird associations. Most adventurers can sew. It is assumed they mend and make simple items as they travel. It would not be difficult to stitch together a small cloak. It needn't be perfect. And, yes, I do love the idea of a wizard trying to trade or steal a pixie's cloak. It is a fun role-playing opportunity.



Good creative thinking! Hopefully your mentor is high enough level to provide one to you. But maybe you have to go get a newt for him to petrify for you.

See, this is why I LOVE making components matter. My D&D games need more newt hunts!



Note - I am not doing away with spell focus. Just that you have to have studied with the component before you can cast the spell with the focus. I assume that the wizards academy or higher-level caster you are learning from will have this available. Or go to jewelers and pay to let them study with a diamond for a nominal fee. If you want a backup diamond while travelling, in case you loe your focus, well, you need to find a way to get one.



Again, not an issue for me.

1. No oaks in your area? I smell a plot hook.

2. Someone else may have some and sell it to you or your mentor may let you borrow to study with it and then you use your focus to cast thereafter.

3. Upthread there was a recommendation to allow players to propose alternative components and make a skill check with an alchemist set to see if they can figure out how to cast the spell with the substitute. I'm all for that! So then, yes, try with the bark from other trees.

4. My players use DnD Beyond, so no copying from one sheet to another. I trust them to manage their own inventories. If I wanted to, I suppose I could review their DnD Beyond sheets, but if I felt the need to do that, I wouldn't be playing with them.



You do research. You make a nature check. You do trial and error. Banishment is an annoying, broken spell without this limitation. Even with a focus, I would say, you need to bring to mind something distasteful to the creature that you have actually physically held in the past. Which is great for role-playing. If give the wizard an incentive to play around with every disgusting thing he comes across so he can properly envision it when casting the spell.



Hey, that's their choice. But if you want to have banishment, you better start getting up close and personal with a lot of gross stuff. Sure, most will rely on there focus...until they have it stolen or destroyed. I'm not going to cry from them. They can still cast spells without material components and they could have stocked up on some back up material components. A fighter that gets disarmed doesn't have as many backup options.



ABSOLUTELY! Why is everyone making the enemies so damn polite. Disarm the fighters! Steal/destroy/cast away the wizards pouches and wands. Make the party think more tactically. Have backups to your backup. Take measures to make it difficult to steal your components and focus.



Depends on the players. I don't think it would go over well at AL night at my local FLGS. But for my home game, we find combat far more interesting. You also need to keep an eye out for ambushes and pickpockets. Maybe the "simple" goblin encounter turns out not to be a simple beat down when one of them grabs your staff and runs off with it. Now you have chase him into the goblins' lair, where you are over numbered. You have to find your staff while avoiding getting mobbed in the tunnels. Or, the party determines it isn't worth the risk, the wizard relies on the components she has, until she can get to a place where she can buy or make a new staff.



I'm not saying that each and every component has to be a side quest. In fact, obtaining many components will be a downtime activity. But it gives additional tactical considerations that add to more interesting combats. It balances out some spells like banishment. And it does give a wealth of plot hooks and role-playing opportunities.

But, if the players don't want to deal with it, then, like encumbrance, it can be handwaved. But many people enjoy the resource management aspect.

"Note - I am not doing away with spell focus. Just that you have to have studied with the component before you can cast the spell with the focus. I assume that the wizards academy or higher-level caster you are learning from will have this available. Or go to jewelers and pay to let them study with a diamond for a nominal fee. If you want a backup diamond while travelling, in case you loe your focus, well, you need to find a way to get one"


Uhh normally arcane focus does not replace the ingredients with cost, so normally an arcane focus would not allow casting chromatic orb without the 50gp diamond.

If you are now ruling it to be a borrow to train only, then use focus, that hits a lot of spells and really shofts the burden of costly materials.

Fyi to the poster who gripes about chromatic orb, in my current gamr my sorc hascpassed on CO thru levels 1-3 and maybe 4 due to not seeing any chance on getting a 50 gp diamond.

I doubt by now she will even be looking for it, having already worked offense around other combos.

In a more "traditional" DnD game, it would have been likely taken at 2nd thru having sufficient loot and access.

But she is keeping an eye out for caster spoils at evety opportunity.

 

[MNblockhead]

@5ekya I think it is important to remember that I'm not suggesting this for every campaign. My next campaign is an old school mega-dungeon. They are expected to be going in and coming out, over and over again.

No-one will level up "in the field" (in this case in the dungeon). Once you have enough XP to level up, you have to train to get the level. They have to go back to the academy / guild / the crazy hermit on the mountain / their personal laboratory. Non-casters have no benefit over casters because they most all get to a location where they can train to level up.

Moreover, in this campaign, XP is mostly received for treasure extracted from the dungeon.

It is a different style campaign than most 5e games.

But even if I was playing a more typical AP, I see nothing wrong with requiring training to get a level.

For the most part, you'll be able to get access to the material components from the source of your training. After that, you can use your focus to cast it, even if you can't easily find the component for your own possession.

Now, if you play a campaign where you are ranging out in the wilds and you leveling up is all self-taught, by-your-own bootstraps style, then, yes, maybe you'll want to consider handwaving material components.

"That doesn't, IMO, nerf casters."

The must use comp to,learn depends on how easy comps are to get. If i want to learn at 3rd level the Aggie Scorcher are red dragon scales so common its likely i can find them?

If at 2nd level i want to add Tasha's but we are in the field, are there Tart Bushes?

Now, you may laugh at my Tasha example, but consider instead find familiar.

Now be a Rogue going Trickster at 3rd level in the field. No town nesrby but we leveled up. He is REQUIRED to pick his spells then and he will not get a chance to take another non-enchant spell until like 5 levels later.

So you put him in the quandry, pick a spell he wont be able to use for who knows how long, or pick a spell without comps and wait 5 levels for his familiar.

This gets back to the issue of changing the materials as part of a comprehensive change - like say "you only level during downtime at signigicant towns - week of training and work and cost/access."

Not a hypothetical, happened in the game i play. Waiting on level up info now but it looks like our Trickster just spent the entirety of his 3rd level without getting mats for his FF since we finally made it to the keep where we hope he can find the ingredients. His choice was to basically "waste" that spell because he did not want to wait until 8th and the special choice at 3rd cannot change.

He also skipped Tasha's because "no tart bushes" and cannot use focus so... How long do tarts last? I doubt he will ever take it even though its right up the trickster alley.

In practical terms, either the rule plays a role that is noticably problematic for material spells or its gonna be a lot of rule for little notice.

If its the former its gonna significantly impact spell choice.

If not, its likely gonna be not that much different so why bother? Is it woeth these rules for "when i level i spend screen time routinely gathering mu bugs and dust"?

We started our current game naked and equipmentless. Our whole first level was without our gear. My halfling could not cast light, but because i took all my other spelks as non-mats was otherwise not hindered. Still no light spell, no torches was significant to half the party.

But it could have been much worse.

Either was my list of prioritized spell candidates now lists them in order of material demand and availability.

Maybe you will find a sweet spot **without an overhaul** where there is "enough change and better flavor to,make it worth tracking" but not "so much change it negatively impacts long term play and limits spell choices."

But before that can be guessed at - how common are red dragon scales and how,long do tarts last in a spell pouch before going bad and smelly?

 

[MNblockhead]

Uhh normally arcane focus does not replace the ingredients with cost, so normally an arcane focus would not allow casting chromatic orb without the 50gp diamond.

Right, bad example. The red dragon scale may be a better example. If the material has a cost, you must obtain it and have it on you to cast the spell.

If you are now ruling it to be a borrow to train only, then use focus, that hits a lot of spells and really shofts the burden of costly materials.

No, materials with cost cannot be replaced by a spellcasting focus. I plan on following that as per RAW.

Fyi to the poster who gripes about chromatic orb, in my current gamr my sorc hascpassed on CO thru levels 1-3 and maybe 4 due to not seeing any chance on getting a 50 gp diamond.

Did the player have their character make any attempts to obtain one? 50 GP isn't such a rare item that it couldn't be bought, stolen, or provided as a reward for a dangerous quest.

 

[5ekyu]

Right, bad example. The red dragon scale may be a better example. If the material has a cost, you must obtain it and have it on you to cast the spell.



No, materials with cost cannot be replaced by a spellcasting focus. I plan on following that as per RAW.



Did the player have their character make any attempts to obtain one? 50 GP isn't such a rare item that it couldn't be bought, stolen, or provided as a reward for a dangerous quest.

Yes, I did. Neither the remote fishing village, the goblins and orcs nor the overland trek thru remote hills turned up DIAMONDS.

But again, a lot of this will come down to how available the hm makes the materials along with how much screen time he wants to spend on leveling up.

Is "our job this week is hunting newts - small palm sized lizard-like thingies" the quest and play style the troupe prefers over say "our job this week is to go see why the courier and the weekly patrol check-in are late. Let's start heading out to the south bridge".

If the GM "provides" the ingredients as treasure even to the right sized diamonds, where is the gain in play from the new rules changes?

 

[5ekyu]

@5ekya I think it is important to remember that I'm not suggesting this for every campaign. My next campaign is an old school mega-dungeon. They are expected to be going in and coming out, over and over again.

No-one will level up "in the field" (in this case in the dungeon). Once you have enough XP to level up, you have to train to get the level. They have to go back to the academy / guild / the crazy hermit on the mountain / their personal laboratory. Non-casters have no benefit over casters because they most all get to a location where they can train to level up.

Moreover, in this campaign, XP is mostly received for treasure extracted from the dungeon.

It is a different style campaign than most 5e games.

But even if I was playing a more typical AP, I see nothing wrong with requiring training to get a level.

For the most part, you'll be able to get access to the material components from the source of your training. After that, you can use your focus to cast it, even if you can't easily find the component for your own possession.

Now, if you play a campaign where you are ranging out in the wilds and you leveling up is all self-taught, by-your-own bootstraps style, then, yes, maybe you'll want to consider handwaving material components.

"For the most part, you'll be able to get access to the material components from the source of your training. After that, you can use your focus to cast it, even if you can't easily find the component for your own possession. "

If this is the target of your new rules, the sweet spot you aim yo hit, I do not see (in a level in town costs to train and time setting) I have to say this looks practically identical **in result** to the std 5ebplay experience and so why go thru the changes?

What is gained that makes it worth the effort and bookkeeping of the result is practically the same as the base 5e rules including component pouches and focus?

I use house rules myself when I gm, but a definite starting point is "what's the change in play and what's the effort" and if the former is not much then I take a pass.

 

[Quickleaf]

My next campaign is going to involve a lot of resource management and downtime rules.

I would like part of the resource management to be spell components... <snip>

I'm wondering how others have made components matter in their 5e game without straying too far from the RAW.

I think your approach – enforcement – is a good "stick" way of reigniting some flavor around magic. D&D magic has never really felt magical (that is, mysterious, unpredictable, and/or ritualistic), but at least the components introduce a little bit of "magic" feel.

In my own games, I've come at this from a "carrot" approach, with enhanced/special components being things the PCs can find, trade for, or harvest (e.g. "aelfengrape" which acts as an enchanced material component for the sleep spell, doubling the Hit Dice affected, making the spell still relevant against mid-tier monsters).

That kind of bookkeeping isn't for every player, however. I think one way to handle it might be leaving it as a "Spell Resource Management" toggle that each player can choose to be "on" or "off" for their PC. Off? You're essentially using Harry Potter-esque magic. On? You are doing hardcore D&D magic, with both the "stick" of component management/acquisition & the "carrot" of enhanced special components.

 

[pming]

Hiya!

What I do in my campaign is have a rule where the 'base spell' is easily handled with using a Material Component/Focus ("MCF") unless it has something with an actual cost associated with it; that is always specifically needed (as normal). However...

IF a PC actually goes through the trouble of obtaining the 'true' MC's, they can use those specific to cast the spell with some bonus to it. That bonus is usually an increase in Range, or Area of Affect, minimum average damage, increase DC, etc (generally "50% bonus"). The Player gets to state what he is trying to do..."I'll use my [MC] to increase the range by +50%".

It lets players who don't want to put that much thought/effort into playing a spellcaster still have fun, but encourages them and others to put a *bit* more effort into it.

Personally? I LOVE spell components! My highest level PC (1e AD&D) was a Magic-User, where MC wasn't "optional". I used the tables from a Dragon magazine that had costs and general availability of finding them all listed. These tables were more or less reproduced in the "Players Option: Spells and Magic" book. That's the list I use for my 5e game. Great stuff!

^_^

Paul L. Ming

 

[JiffyPopTart]

*Disclaimer: Everything I say here is coming from the point-of-view of someone who wouldn't find tracking material components interesting in any way.

I think that if you were going to go for a campaign feel where you are going to micromanage tracking material components, you should also similarly enforce tracking on non-spellcasters so that every player has an "item list" of junk they have to keep track of. The easiest non-spellcaster to enforce this with is an archer, since you can easily "count arrows" during the adventure. A harder, needing houserule, bit of tracking is going to be coming up with something to penalize armor wearers, melee weapon users, and even tool users (mostly thieves tools but it could vary).

If the wizards need to keep dumping gold (or time) into purchasing (or finding) components, the fighters should be doing the same getting their armor repaired and swords sharpened, and the rogues should be constantly repurchasing used up and broken thieves tools. When your shield strap breaks in the middle of the cave of despair there isn't an armorer around to repair the damage...much less you being able to do it in the field without a portable workbench at a minimum.

Similarly, if your foes are going to play smart and go for the wizards focus constantly, they should similarly be doing the same with archers bowstrings, bards instruments, and other items they can destroy to take the PCs out of the fight, at least with their primary attack choice.

If you want to make the "thrill of upkeep" a fun part of your campaign and your players are onboard with it then you should make ALL the characters have to do the work, not just a subset of them.

DS

 

[MNblockhead]

"For the most part, you'll be able to get access to the material components from the source of your training. After that, you can use your focus to cast it, even if you can't easily find the component for your own possession. "

If this is the target of your new rules, the sweet spot you aim yo hit, I do not see (in a level in town costs to train and time setting) I have to say this looks practically identical **in result** to the std 5ebplay experience and so why go thru the changes?

What is gained that makes it worth the effort and bookkeeping of the result is practically the same as the base 5e rules including component pouches and focus?

I use house rules myself when I gm, but a definite starting point is "what's the change in play and what's the effort" and if the former is not much then I take a pass.

It makes the components matter. It adds some flavor to the game. It gives some potential plot hooks. In this upcoming campaign, it is also another way to spend money and an additional downtime activity.

You are correct, this is not a major departure from RAW. I want to stick with RAW for the most part. I'm not going to graft an Elderscrolls or Witcher style alchemy system into my 5e game. The players will not find my proposed change foreign or complicated. The problem with components in 5e is that they just do not matter, besides as a backup for a focus. All I'm doing is saying that the components are an important part of learning and understanding a spell. For the most part, I will not put many roadblocks in the way of getting the components. But it allows me to make SOME components difficult to get and use those as a plot hook.

In short, it gives me as DM something to grasp onto to make components have some meaning and to flavor the game.

Look, I've played 5e over 4 years without ever bothering with non-cost material components. I feel that it would be fun to make them matter a bit more. And, for an old-school mega-dungeon campaign, making material components have value adds another dimension to resource management will be a central focus and continual challenge.