Reworking initiative (inspired by HoMM)

[Kahuna Burger]

HoMM is Heroes of Might and Magic, to lay some groundwork for this post. It is a turn based fantasy video game which also uses turn based combat. It is the combat initiative that I find interesting and wonder if it could be adapted to an rpg....

As you play out a combat, at the bottom of the screen there is a bar showing who will be taking their turns first. At this start of combat, this seems to be somewhat randomized but with "faster" creatures going first. So in a combat between the Red and Blue armies, you would see little thumbnails lined up telling you what the combat order was going to be.

[Brb] [Ftr] [Dru] [Wiz] [Sor] [Rng]

Now the key difference between this and D&D initiative is that it doesn't just cycle around. Instead of everyone taking one turn a round, each combatant gets it's next turn in combat a number of initiative ticks after it's last one. This means that a faster creature can and probably will end up going twice before a very slow one.

[Brb] [Ftr] [Dru] [Wiz] [Brb] [Sor] [Ftr] [Rng]

Additionally, spells or morale based effects can move your initiative order. So an initiative order that looks like this...

[Dru] [Wiz] [Brb] [Sor] [Ftr] [Rng] [Dru] [Brb] [Wiz]

...before the druid casts Slowing Muck on the fighter, might look like this afterwards :

[Dru] [Wiz] [Brb] [Sor] [Rng] [Dru] [Ftr] [Brb] [Wiz]

Giving the Ranger another chance to attack the fighter or move out of his way. If it comes up to the Barbarian's turn

[Brb] [Sor] [Rng] [Dru] [Ftr] [Brb] [Wiz] [Rng] [Sor] [Dru] [Ftr]

and he gets a morale boost after completing his action, it moves his space in the line up a little.

[Sor] [Rng] [Dru] [Brb] [Ftr] [Wiz] [Rng] [Sor] [Dru] [Ftr]

Now, in the video game, obviously the rules for doing this can be as complicated as they want because the computer is keeping track of it all. There can be a morale check before and after every character's turn and a randomized variable added to each initiative placement, and you won't have a DM or players clawing their eyes out from the tedium. What I've been considering is how to translate the basic idea to the tabletop.

What I basicly have so far is :

* Initiative counts up instead of down, and continues to increase rather than starting over.

* Lower initiative modifier is better as it causes your next turn to be sooner.

* When combat begins you add your initiative roll* to your initiative modifier and go when the DM gets to that count.

* After each turn you take, you add your initiative modifier to your current initiative score and go next when that count is reached.

* Spells or effects can add to or subtract from your current initiative score, but never bring it below the current initiative count.

(*not sure this should continue to be a d20 in this situation, as a very high roll could lead to someone with a good initiative modifier going 3 or more times before you do. )

Things I'm not sure about - How do you actually count rounds for spells with round based durations? Counting it to the next time the caster goes could make a bad init a good thing, which seems a bit weird. Possibly a round is every X initiative 'ticks'? What should X be?

What should the modifying roll be? Should it be repeated every turn?

Should the morale part be included (possibly effecting repeated modifying rolls) or is that adding too much complication?

***

So, any thoughts, suggestions, concerns, pointers to another system that already does this?

 

[Nifft]

IMHO there's one terrible flaw: people don't count good. Computers are great at arithmetic, but where they really blow us out of the water is in counting. Modulo math is NOT something you should introduce to the gaming table -- though it's a fine tool for balancing stuff, it's not something you want to require every player to use every turn. :\

So the question becomes how to emulate that modulo math effect while keeping numbers small.

The other thing is randomness. D&D has a randomized initial initiative, but from that point on it's cyclical (excepting voluntary delays). For a system where people can go more than once per turn, IMHO it's better to add randomness every turn, so people can't count on going more than once in any particular turn.

There are two more things to consider: Immediate actions, and turn-based durations (which you note). So an objective "turn" metric would be nice.

- - -

Okay, here's my thoughts: Continue to count down. Actions cost "initiative points" -- and a bunch of them, like 10 for a Move action, 20 for a Standard action, and 25 or 30 for a Full-Round action, with the extra stipulation that it must be your first action in a round.

Start of combat: everyone rolls their own d20 and adds their initiative modifiers.

Track negatives. The turn is over when everyone is at or below zero.

New turn: DM rolls a d20. Everyone gains that many ticks, plus initiative modifiers. Everyone above zero can act until they are all at or below zero.

- - -

IMHO it's better to use a SW Saga system where you only expect to get a single attack each round. Thus, add 1/2 level to damage, and all that stuff.

Clearly, some things must be changed: initiative modifiers for one thing. Improved Initiative should give a +1 instead of a +4, since it's going to have a cumulative effect. Dexterity shouldn't modify initiative, but should instead reduce the cost of certain actions. For example, there could be a Rapid Strike feat which reduces the cost of attacks with Finessable weapons by 4 (or your Dexterity modifier, whichever is lower). Same with Rapid Shot.

Very few things should modify the cost of spellcasting.

Haste could add another +1 or +2 to your count every turn.

Being Slowed could subtract -2, or just increase the cost of all actions across the board.

- - -

What do you think?

Cheers, -- N

 

[Kahuna Burger]

I'm not sure I would consider your idea simpler, Nifft, seems like it would be more math, but I might have to do a run through of both....

 

[Nifft]

There are only two advantages to my way of thinking:

1/ Number stay in the "human intuitive" range, where we're reasonably good at arithmetic.

2/ There's a built-in mechanic for "per-turn" effect timing.

If you (and of course your group) are particularly good at this sort of math, and don't mind mentally tracking numbers as they grow above 100, then there's not as much value in my proposal.

Well, I guess there is one more advantage:

3/ If you're even just a little careful about what can modify initiative, you can ensure that the cumulative effects only come into play later in the combat -- the quick guy getting to go twice when the fight is 3 rounds in, for example, rather than going thrice in the first "round".

I guess you could adapt that to any initiative system, though -- just ensure actions costs are big and modifier benefits are small. Figure out how often you want the best modifier to grant an extra action, and price actions off of that.

Cheers, -- N

 

[LonePaladin]

There was another RPG that introduced a system like this, where everyone started at a baseline and their actions counted very specifically toward when they'd get to act again.

That game was Rolemaster — a very detailed, math-heavy RPG — and the system was in one of their companion books with some sort of acronym (something like CEATS, I believe).

While intensely realistic, that system was extremely chart- and math-intensive, and really only usable by players who were heavily into realistic gaming and number-crunching. I tried using it in my own game once, and we didn't get halfway through the session before we simply scrapped it and went back to the original combat system.

This sort of initiative tracking is very difficult to set up by scratch, because you have to scrutinize every possible action the characters may take and assign a time-frame to it. You also have to be very careful in how you set up modifiers (such as the effects of a high Dexterity, or things like the Improved Initiative feat, or things that can alter someone's place in the order or how long they need for an action). If you don't do a lot of tweaking and testing before presenting it into a game, your players will possibly find ways to thoroughly exploit the system, maybe even without intending to do so.

You would also have to determine other impacts on the combat system, especially timed effects. If someone casts a spell that lasts 1 round in the current rules, for example, how long would it last in your new system? How long do move actions take, as opposed to simply moving? Is movement done incrementally, or do characters still move up to their speed in one action, without anyone having a chance to interrupt them? What about if someone readies an action, or chooses to delay? How do swift and immediate actions work?