D&D (2024) Reworking the 2024 Hiding rules

[MerricB]

A few people were wondering if I'd ever come up with revised Hiding rules for D&D 2024. I haven't, not really.

Instead, I've reframed the rules to better fit what I think the designer intention is.

However, the main changes I made to the wording are as follows:

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Hide [Action]

With the Hide action, you try to conceal yourself. To do so, you must succeed on a DC 15 Dexterity (Stealth) check while you’re Heavily Obscured or behind Three-Quarters Cover or Total Cover. You may not hide if any enemy has line of sight to you that isn’t hindered by those states; if you can see a creature, you can discern whether it has a clear line of sight to you.

On a successful check, you have the Invisible condition. Make note of your check’s total, which is the DC for a creature to find you with a Wisdom (Perception) check.

The condition ends on you immediately after any of the following occurs: you make a sound louder than a whisper, an enemy finds you with a Search action, you make an attack roll, you cast a spell with a Verbal component, or you no longer fulfill the conditions to take the Hide action.

Your DM may choose to extend the condition if they decide all enemies are distracted and are still unaware.

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Invisibility (spell)

A creature you touch becomes impossible to see without the aid of magic or a special sense. The target has the Invisible condition until the spell ends. The spell ends early immediately after the target makes an attack roll, deals damage, or casts a spell.

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Key takeaways:

• Passive Perception is no longer a thing
• Revised the line-of-sight wording so it's clearer
• The invisibility spell adds the text that was removed from the condition (so it now actually says you can't be seen!)
• You can't remain hidden if you step out of the conditions that allowed you to hide in the first place - if you step into the open, it'll end.
• These rules still don't explain if, when hidden, opponents know in which space you are.
• The 2024 revision to Spike Growth indicated that passive Perception no longer worked, as it explicitly calls out a Search action being the only way to notice the spikes, which tracked with some of the more obscure wording to the Hide action.

There are still improvements to be made to wording and the like. Feel free to suggest them!

Do I think this is 100% how it works? Nah - but it's my best guess at how it's intended to work!

Cheers!

 

[Horwath]

I would add, creatures who you can only see with darkvision can hide from you without needing any cover.
this would add another reason to carry lights even if you have darkvision.

 

[KYRON45]

I think using the invisible condition language will turn this into a 2500 post thread. I'll get the pop corn.

 

[aco175]

I might add something about moving on your turn and if you still have advantage on attacks and can get sneak attack. I can see the designers making it a bit like the halfling hiding behind the fighter and popping out each turn with advantage in 2014. I can see the intend being that you are hidden and you are able to jump out and 'surprise' someone, weather that is 5ft or 1/2 speed or full speed is up in the air.

 

[Sulicius]

Could you bold or italicize the parts you changed?

 

[TaranTheWanderer]

This is a mess but it's just ideas to be organized:

The problem with the "Hide" action is it is too narrow in scope. It deals only with sight. I think there should be more language regarding the target's "awareness".

1. There should be mention of ambushing and surprise.

2. There should be an extra mention as to whether a creature is "aware". Making it possible to hide from someone in a crowd of people, for example or hide from someone who is 'distracted'.

3. I think the 'Hide' action puts too much onus on the one hiding. Really, hiding from someone is trying to avoid detection. So, once you are "hidden" you are "undetected" or "Unperceivable".
Being Invisible(as the spell) gives a special benefit that allows you to be "Detected" and "Unseen" which allows you to be attacked(and attack) with all the advantages that Invisibility allows. If an opponent is invisible and the perceiver has truesight or blindsight, then you are "Detected" and "Seen"

- So, if it were me, I'd let the Invisibility spell give you the "Unseen" Condition.

- A successful "hide" check makes you "Undetectable" or gives you the "Undetected" condition. Any action that would give away your location: such as making noise louder than a whisper, attacking, being "Seen" because of lack of cover or concealment, or otherwise drawing the target's attention to you ends the Condition. Because we're dealing with detection, it means special senses like "Smell" and "blindsight" can "detect" without making perception check. It's just a broader but more precise term.

You must be "undetected" to make a hide check, even if the target is aware of you. To maintain this condition, you must make a Sneak Check DC 15 or DC10+target's Perception bonus, whichever is higher.

(I say "maintain" because you must be undetectable to even make a hide check in the first place, right? Like you dive behind some tree cover and the target loses sight of you and there's too much ambient noise from combat for them to track you. Now you are undetected and may make a "hide" check. If you succeed, you remain hidden for your turn and may get all the benefits, such as moving unnoticed, and ambushing a target)

- A target must not be aware of your presence in order to make a Hide check or be able to pinpoint your location. That includes using deception to blend into a crowd, having cover or concealment.

- Ambushing: If you successfully hide, you have a temporary opportunity to take someone by surprise even while out of cover. You may attack someone with the advantage as long as you don't move more than half your speed and only for the first attack of a round. (this is an example but I feel it should be made explicit on how moving from cover and attacking unsuspecting or unaware target works.)

Okay, lets put this mess together:

Hide: You may make a hide check to avoid Detection or to prevent characters from being Aware of your presence. Make a Sneak check vs DC 15 or 10+ highest Perception check of the characters you are attempting to Hide from. Failure means the target becomes Aware of your presence and you are Detected. If you succeed, you remain Undetected, possibly allowing you to move past an enemy or sneak up on an enemy to make an Ambush.

Awareness (Aware/Unaware): Awareness is the whether other characters know of your presence. You can make a Hide check if the target is "Unaware" of you. Which could be because you are blending into a crowd, taking advantage of a target being distracted (an ally distracting them and you sneak up behind them) or because you are hiding behind cover. A target can be Aware of your presence even if you are Undetected.

"Detection (Undetected/Detected)": This refers to whether a target knows your exact location. Being Detected means an enemy is Aware of your presence and can pinpoint your exact location in or out of combat. You could be Undetected because a target is Unaware of your presence or because you have Full or partial cover or concealment. Making noise louder than a whisper(being heard), attacking, being Seen because of lack of cover or concealment, or otherwise drawing the target's attention to you ends the Condition.

Sight: (Seen/Unseen): This condition refers to whether a target can perceive you visually. You are considered to have Full cover/concealment against anyone relying on sight for Detection. Invisibility gives you the Unseen condition. For anyone relying on sight to Detect you, an Unseen character gets advantage to attacks and attackers get disadvantage. An Unseen character can attempt a Hide check against sighted characters.

Ambushing/Surprise: You get advantage against anyone who cannot "detect" you or who is "unaware" of your presence. Advantage is maintained as long as you move no further than "x" feet from cover(probably based on movement) and only affects your first attack in the round.


I'm sure there's lots of holes in this. I edited stuff regarding Unseen

 

[TaranTheWanderer]

Reposting my final thoughts:

Hide: You may make a hide check to avoid Detection or to prevent characters from being Aware of your presence. Make a Stealth check vs DC 15 or 10+ highest Perception check of the characters you are attempting to Hide from. Failure means the target becomes Aware of your presence and you are Detected. You make this check at disadvantage if you are moving faster than half your movement speed. If you succeed, you remain Undetected, possibly allowing you to move past an enemy or sneak up on an enemy to make an Ambush. Some special senses, such as Blindsight or Scent may allow certain characters to automatically detect you. Special precautions may be required to hide from such enemies.

Awareness (Aware/Unaware): Awareness is the whether other characters know of your presence. You can attempt to hide if the target is "Unaware of your presence. Which could be because you are blending into a crowd, taking advantage of a target being distracted (an ally distracting them and you sneak up behind them) or because you are hiding behind cover and Undetected. A target can be Aware of your presence even if you are Undetected. Using Awareness to Hide without cover or concealment may require a suitable skill check such as Deception depending on the situation. Ask your GM.

Detection (Undetected/Detected)": This refers to whether a target knows your exact location. Being Detected means an enemy is Aware of your presence and can pinpoint your location in or out of combat. To be Undetected a target must be Unaware of your presence or you must have Full or partial cover or concealment. Making noise louder than a whisper(being heard), attacking, being Seen because of lack of cover or concealment, or otherwise drawing the target's attention to you ends the Condition. Special senses such as Blindsight or Scent may allow certain to characters to automatically Detect you.

Invisible: refers to whether a target can perceive you visually. You are considered to have Full cover/concealment against anyone relying on sight for Detection. For anyone relying on sight to Detect you, an Invisible character character gets advantage to attacks and attackers get disadvantage. An Invisible character can attempt a Hide check against sighted characters.

Ambushing/Surprise: If an enemy is Unaware or if you are Undetected, you get advantage to attack. Advantage is maintained as long as you move no further than "x" feet from cover(probably based on movement) and only affects your first attack in the round.

 

[Reynard]

I don't think it is that complex. Also, I don't think "invisible" is a good condition for this.

Hidden: when a creature is Hidden, they can be neither seem nor targeted by a creature they are Hidden against. You are no longer Hidden if you leave cover or are no longer heavily obscured.

Hide (action): make a DC 15 Dexterity (Stealth) check while heavily obscured or behind at least 3/4 cover. On a success, you are Hidden to creatures who fail a Wisdom (Perception) check to find you (your check result is the DC).

I don't think it needs to be more complicated than that.

 

[TaranTheWanderer]

I kind of like the distinction of being aware because it lets you know whether you should roll against a passive perception and when a character can start actively looking for hidden characters. From what I remember of the rules, that was a confusion for some people.

If they're aware, they can use their actions to look for you, otherwise, roll against Passive Perception.

Otherwise, I left the rules as they were. I just changed some of the keywords and added an explicit rule for moving out of cover to ambush people. Which was a suggestion. It could simply be a rule that, if you move out of cover and are seen you don't get your 'sneak attack' or whatever. I just feel they should explicitly explain that.

But maybe I'm being too fiddly.
Instead of Unseen/seen, I think Invisible/Visible is better. I mean, that's what invisibility is after all....

 

[BruceWright]

I’m trying to save the descendant of old “backstab” ability here: Sneak attack.

If leaving cover immediately ends the condition, there’s no way to sneak melee attack from hiding.