D&D (2024) Reworking the 2024 Hiding rules

[TaranTheWanderer]

Yeah, hiding is often just more than not being seen - it has an element of being quiet/silent. I'm a little unhappy that 2024 only cares about the visual aspect. Further, some creatures can be detected/percieved by smell, but I'm not sure about the idea of using Stealth to mask one's scent.

Perhaps there should be a Hidden and a Silent condition? Invisible would be the uber version of Hidden and the Silence spell would give the uber version of Silent?

Yeah, and hiding in a crowd of people is a thing too. You could be in plain sight and still sneaking up on someone.

I did a big write up earlier in this thread but I guess it was too wordy for people to pay attention to. The point is Hiding is more about Target "Awareness" and a Target's ability to pinpoint a location.

Invisibility just allows you to have Cover. You can, therefore, try to Hide any time. The narrative to that Hiding, I imagine, would be trying to be very quiet or try to throw an enemy's attention to a different location. So, there's definitely some element of sound/being silent.

 

[Hawk Diesel]

This only seems to deal with sight. Which is the biggest problem with hide rules in general.

I don't know that its a problem so much as an abstraction. We don't tend to worry about exhaustion when a combat happens, but for anyone that has actually fought it is very much at the forefront of mind and strategy.

Just because the rules don't directly mention other senses doesn't mean it can't apply to them. But I do think that sight is the most important sense in combat, since humans rely on sight more than any other sense. Sight is much more important to knowing where to swing a sword or shoot a bow. Just because a person can smell or hear someone doesn't mean they would know where to aim. Which is the main point to the hidden condition. It's all about having line of sight or knowing what square can be targeted with an attack.

The rules don't need to cover every edge case, just provide a foundation that could then apply to other instances. For creatures that rely much more on hearing, smell, tremorsense, etc, you can make adjustments to cover such instances. But since a majority of creatures seem to rely more on sight for fighting, that is going to be the primary concern when it comes to hiding and the hidden condition.

 

[mellored]

It’s not that straightforward. Invisible means you can’t be seen. Hiding means your location can’t be pinpointed.

Because, in this game, you can’t be targeted if you’re hiding but you can be targeted if you can’t be seen.

Pathfinder 2e does this.

Unaware: doesn't know
Undetected: knows your somewhere
Hidden: knows your square
Observed: can clearly see you.

But that's adds complications. Especially if you have 5 creatures each with different awareness of 5 other creatures = 50 different states to track.


The whole point of switching to DC 15 is to avoid all that.

 

[Li Shenron]

Perhaps there should be a Hidden and a Silent condition? Invisible would be the uber version of Hidden and the Silence spell would give the uber version of Silent?

The funny thing is that not even "invisible" is fully uber... if you stand on muddy ground, sand, high grass or water, you are invisibile as transparent but not as hidden as you may want, especially in combat when you keep moving.

 

[Li Shenron]

I’m trying to save the descendant of old “backstab” ability here: Sneak attack.

Is that your own idea? Because they're not necessarily intended to be exactly the same across editions.

If leaving cover immediately ends the condition, there’s no way to sneak melee attack from hiding.

There is, if you want to.

Sneak attack requires advantage on the attack. It doesn't require to be hidden, even though being hidden grants advantage.

Out of combat, I'd ask the player what they want to accomplish and how, and then choose how to resolve it. I am under no obligation to even require a roll (remember rule zero?) but just decide on success or failure depending on the circumstances. Or require a roll if I am undecided. Similarly, I can decide that what the character is doing + circumstances are enough to grant advantage, so sneak attack applies, or not... or I can ask for a Stealth check to let the dice decide if they have advantage or not. In other words, the Stealth check can represent the whole effort start to finish in order to sneak attack.

In combat, I generally stick to the idea that everyone is alert. So no, you are not going to get advantage on attacks by moving out of hiding. If you are a Rogue, you have enough ways to get sneak attack almost every round anyway. Maybe I'd consider it if we were using facing rules in combat, but not with default rules.

IMO

If you take the Dash action, you need to reroll your stealth check with disadvantage.

That gives people an chance to sneak past guards while they look the other way. Slink from one doorway to the next down a hall. But not walk though an open hall.

I don't understand why we keep mixing up out of combat scenarios with combat rules. If you're sneaking past guards you're not in combat and there is no dash action. In theory, out of combat the party is just travelling, and there used to be general travel pace values for everyone no matter their "speed" score on the character sheet, which was only intended for combat (and maybe chases). Incidentally, I think originally stealth required to travel at a slow pace.

 

[mellored]

I don't understand why we keep mixing up out of combat scenarios with combat rules. If you're sneaking past guards you're not in combat and there is no dash action.

Don't see why dash isn't allowed outside combat.

But the difference is sneaking 30' past a guard vs 60' past a guard with disadvantage.

Lucky for me, it's my houserule so I don't need to worry about exact wording.

 

[Li Shenron]

Don't see why dash isn't allowed outside combat.

Maybe because it's an action defined under "actions in combat", and otherwise mentioned only either in combat or chase situations?

 

[Sorinth]

A couple of my thoughts

• The keyword should be something along the lines of Unseen rather then Invisible.
• There should probably be a moderate obscurement level because light vs total is too wide a range. Cover has 3 levels (Half, 3/4s, Total) so there's an argument for the same being true for obscurement levels.
• It's easier to hide when not moving, and the requirements for hiding are likely much lower for cases where you aren't moving
• The die roll for stealth check should only be done when there's actually interesting outcomes for failure, and passive perception/stealth pretty much exist to avoid metagame knowledge from being passed on
• Being hidden then leaving any sort of cover and making an attack should be at advantage. Pretty sure this is the RAI, and for my own logic yes you are seen before the attack but your sudden and unexpected appearance from a location creates a level of surprise which is represented as advantage on the first attack.
• Actually being/going invisible should give some sort of action economy benefit to hiding. Whether it's being able to Hide as a free/bonus action, or by having other creatures need to make a perception check at the start of their turns to see if they know where you are.

 

[Hawk Diesel]

Don't see why dash isn't allowed outside combat.

But the difference is sneaking 30' past a guard vs 60' past a guard with disadvantage.

Lucky for me, it's my houserule so I don't need to worry about exact wording.

I don't think it's so much that Dash isn't allowed out of combat, but rather that it doesn't make sense. We aren't tracking rounds out of combat, so why would we track speed as rigidly as we would in combat? Personally, I think of combat like it is represented in BG3. The turn-based mode doesn't start until initiative is rolled. Or like in the early Final Fantasy games where the screen would change for combat situations. Combat is just handled differently than out-of-combat encounters (which is why combat rules are so much more robust in D&D than the exploration or social pillars), so it doesn't necessarily make sense to apply combat rules to non-combat scenarios.

 

[mellored]

I don't think it's so much that Dash isn't allowed out of combat, but rather that it doesn't make sense. We aren't tracking rounds out of combat, so why would we track speed as rigidly as we would in combat?

Moving quickly / dash / running out of combat gives disadvantage on stealth checks.

Reword it however you like.