D&D 4E Rich Baker on his 4e Warlord

[Khaalis]

Well, lets compare, all of the following are class abilities that are based on “off-stats” for the class (and this is just a small list). This is an awful lot more classes than simply the Warblade. This, to me, says that it is an ongoing concept of class design starting in the earliest classes and being used in various classes over time. They all use pretty much the same basic concept in mechanical bonuses based from an “off-stat” to something specifically useful to the class concept.

Additionally, the Warblade’s INT based abilities make up 5 out of their 13 class abilities. I’d say that is a pretty significant part of the class design and highly unlikely it was meant to simply be ignored. Thus, I have to make a huge leap of faith here and ASSUME they were written into the class because they were intended to be part of the class’s shtick. I can’t assume that these were meant to be ignored or they wouldn’t bother putting them in the class.

Warblade:
• Battle Clarity – INT to REF saves
• Battle Ardor – INT to Confirm Crits
• Battle Cunning – INT to Damage vs. Flat-footed
• Battle Skill – INT to resist special attacks
• Battle Mastery – INT to AoO Attack/Damage

Cleric:
• Turn Undead – CHA = Uses per day and Turn Check

Crusader:
• Indomitable Soul – CHA to WILL saves
• Smite – CHA to Attack Bonus

Monk:
• AC Bonus – WIS to AC

Ninja:
• AC Bonus – WIS to AC
• Ki Power – WIS = Uses per day which feeds almost all their other abilities

Paladin:
• Smite – CHA to Attack Bonus
• Divine Grace – CHA to Saves
• Lay on Hands – CHA = Healing
• Turn Undead – CHA = Uses per day and Turn Check

Spirit Shaman:
• Chastise Spirit – CHA to Save DC
• Spirit Form – CHA = Deflection AC
• Exorcism – CHA to check

Swordsage:
• AC Bonus – WIS to AC
• Insightful Strike – WIS to Damage

Warmage:
• Warmage Edge – INT to Damage spells

JMHO, but I don't think any of these abilities were added to the classes and NOT intended to be a part of the class's functinality.

 

[glass]

I certainly believe he is, and actually he does have a point.. You can't say that a fighter is ineffective cause he needs 4 stats when everybody needs 4 stats... weak compared to what? 3e?

Weak compared to how the class reads?

MAD leads to a situation where the class is described as having all these cool abilities, but really only gets half of them (or whatever). That leads to disappointment. I don't know if that is
what Rechan dislikes about MAD, but it is what I dislike.


glass.

 

[FabioMilitoPagliara]

But Rich actually writes:
(Emphasis mine)

No warlord/wizard there!

maybe he is 9th warlord/ 1st Wizard and consider his character as a 10th level warlord for short?

from the rest of the post I get that he has at least 1 level in wizard

 

[Aloïsius]

OoT//

But I think it's totally unfair to say "WotC put out the Archivist or the Dread Necro because they're just capitalist bastards, and they're just targeting greedy bastard players.

They are not bastard, and there is nothing bad about it. It's just that one of the wellknown incentive to sell new book is power. People like to have more.
My players are all min-maxers. Those with access to the more recent books have more powerfull PC.
Sure, an aspect of this power come from "more option" (eg : cleric), but more often that not it's "more powerful options".
Of course, as I said, not everything will be more powerful in latter books : it's not possible. But a great deal of the new material is.
I'm not even sure this is completely conscious : we are all gamers, and the designers are gamers, too. When they design something "new and interesting" it's often "interesting" from a player point of view : more powerful.
//OoT


What bugs me with the warlord is its healing ability. Seems really NOT logical. And I fail to see which kind of fantasy archertype it fills. Aragorn the healer ? But D&D healing is "insta-magic" and it looks like 4e will be even worse (immediate action, so you don't "waste" your time healing someone).
I don't like that. I would rather reduce the damage output thus reducing the healing requirements. I don't like healing to take place during the fight. It should happen after, when the adrenaline stop to erase the pain. It should be more dramatic and -gasp- less video-gamey (I said it ! i'm feeling dirty now)

 

[glass]

Fine, Rechan, your hatred of characters who, to be as competent as possible, need to have more than one good ability score is noted.

He didn't say that. He said he didn't like have class abilities sitting there on his character sheet that he couldn't use because he couldn't afford the ability points to power them. I hate that too.


glass.

 

[Charwoman Gene]

Juggling stats at character creation, seeing character abilities just sitting on my character sheet Unused because I didn't put that point there instead of here gives me ulcers.

No, that would be H. Pylori.

 

[Baby Samurai]

THis is one of those times that you shouldn't be taken seriously, isn't it? Because you're clearly not trying to make a point here.

I think we all take hong's posts a hell of a lot more seriously than your consistently passive aggressive action…

 

[Cadfan]

Weak compared to how the class reads?

MAD leads to a situation where the class is described as having all these cool abilities, but really only gets half of them (or whatever). That leads to disappointment. I don't know if that is
what Rechan dislikes about MAD, but it is what I dislike.


glass.

What classes exist in 3.5 where that actually happens?

I know that technically you could roll 18, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, and then you'd have class abilities that you couldn't use. But, trying to be reasonable, can you list a class where this occurs?

And just to keep things on a level footing, lets ignore multiclass characters. If you're playing a Monk/Shadowcaster, you get what you deserve when you can't get sufficient bonuses in all six stats.

This seems like such a tempest over nothing. The worst MAD in 3.5 is probably the Favored Soul types who eventually need a 19 in one mental stat and a high stat for saving throws in another, while also hopefully fighting in melee from time to time. So lets call that One. A favored soul who hopes to be a melee brawler has noticeable MAD because he needs all stats except Int.

Anyone else?

Or is the complaint not really that classes get abilities that they can't use due to MAD, but rather that classes get abilities but can't pimp out every single one of them simultaneously?

 

[Plane Sailing]

Let's give these stats: 12 12 14 15 10 11

Paladin A: Str 15 Dex 10 Con 14 Int 11 Wis 12 Cha 12

Paladin B: Str 12 Dex 12 Con 11 Int 10 Wis 14 Cha 15

Paladin C: Str 14 Dex 10 Con 12 Int 11 Wis 10 Cha 15

I think you are overstating the difference here.

All of these paladins get a bonus to hit and damage, either a Con bonus or Dex bonus, all of them will have the opportunity to cast spells from 4th level onwards (because C can put his bonus ability point in Wis at that point), all of them will have a bonus to all their saves.

Now if you wanted your paladin to be

Paladin d: Str 18 Dex 10 Con 10 Int 10 Wis 8 Cha 8 or whatever, THEN he would be missing class abilities based upon sub-par ability scores... but he should probably have been a fighter anyway?

A score of 12 gives a bonus in an ability. Not getting the maximum possible bonus doesn't mean that you are missing a class ability, it just means you have it to a lesser degree. I can't think of any class abilities off-hand where a score of 12 would mean that you missed out on it completely. Maybe you can?

Cheers

 

[hong]

Weak compared to how the class reads?

MAD leads to a situation where the class is described as having all these cool abilities, but really only gets half of them (or whatever). That leads to disappointment. I don't know if that is
what Rechan dislikes about MAD, but it is what I dislike.


glass.

Like I said, this is ultimately about expectations management, not mechanics as such.

Imagine a class, let's call it Foo. Foo is exactly like a fighter, but with a small addition: you get to add your Int bonus to damage. Now from a purely rationalist viewpoint, the Foo class is strictly superior to a fighter. It does everything a fighter does, but if you want, you can also get a small bonus from your Int. (And really, getting a +1 from Int isn't a huge deal even if you're on a budget.) But people don't see it that way. Instead, it's like the class has a feature that you have to invest lots of points to get the most out of, and what should be a good deal suddenly turns into a way of getting teh shaft.

This is basically what the warblade thing boils down to. Looked at purely on its merits, it's a fighter-y class that also happens to have a few cool bits based on Int. If you took those bits out, the class would still stack up pretty well. But because it has Int-based abilities, it gets the MAD label.